ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
I've seen discussions like this one on a number of boards before. The point that it is "not black and white" is well-worth making. But if you really want to make that point, and stick to it, then you are agreeing to be willing to recognize the foibles, the weaknesses, the shortsightedness, the delusions, maybe even the unethical or wholesale inhumane actions/beliefs/statements of your 'favs' whomever or whatever they may be.
Evil and good are not essential things, even if you accept any culture-specific epistemology of such a moral dichotomy. Even Buddha abandoned his wife and children as part of his quest to find enlightenment. I would even bet that Jesus did some bad things in his day.
But this does not discount the reality of _relative_ harm.
At various points in its history, the United States government, or factions operating within it, or factions in control of it, have been responsible for policies or actions which are (IMHO) categorically wrong and unnecessarily harmful. The Trail of Tears, the Tuskegee Airman project, _maybe_ even the recent waterboarding stuff though I tend to lean toward the notion that some of the rough handling those guys got was not only deserved but warranted as an effort to minimize risk of still greater harm to large numbers of people. In any event, there is a fairly long list of historical events that are reasonable candidates for "U.S. wrongs."
Loving your culture or nation and its people, and its historical figures and even the central principles on which it is founded does not necessarily mean that you must turn a blind eye to the injustices that have been perpetrated as a result/in the name of such social causes.
However, when comparing Nazi Germany, or Fascist Japan, or Stalinist USSR, or even by degrees Fascist Italy, with the allied powers who defeated them (either in WWII, or in the Cold War that followed), and implying if not stating that "they were no worse" I have to say: poor logic, poor rhetoric, and suspicious agenda.
Relative to the injustices inherent in allied societies and in the actions they took during the war, the injustices inherent in the Axis nations, and the actions they took during the war are like comparing the number 1,000,000 with the number 10,000,000, indeed, given the Axis were the instigators of the war, you might well argue that the number 60,000,000 to 70,000,000 is the better relative indicator of the Axis injustice. No matter who they were as individuals, "heroes," scions of cultural traditions, of honor, loyalty or whatever, ALL those who fought for the Axis fought to further this relatively much greater magnitude of injustice, and those who fought for the Allies fought against it.
Does that mean the Allies were the relative "good guys" and the Axis were the relative "bad guys?" Does it moreover mean that the "Free World Powers" were the relative "good guys" vis a vis the "Communist Bloc Powers" as the relative "bad guys" (some formerly part of the allies) following WWI?
I say yes on both counts.
Well, Obviously there can be no doubt that the Allies was the "Good Powers" in the beginning of WW2, of course.
I also think that they all entered WW2 with good intentions, and that they executed their policy and efforts to win until the point of Victory, but having said this I still don't see them as "the 'uber' good west" as they IMHO actually were the day when WW2 started.
Things changed during the war, the good Democracy started to make "authoritarian" styled decisions, one I remember very good is that Britain went to war over Poland, but as the war went on they eventually accepted the US-Soviet agreements' of "giving" Poland to Soviet Union in exchange for Soviet declaring war on Japan "when practicle". This types of decisions upset me, and i see them over and over aigan, one here and one there.. it adds up, and it effects my impressions.
Things changed during the war, the good Democracy invaded nations for Oil (Ie. Britain invading Iraq and Persia 1942 due to need for Oil and supplies lines), and the longer into the war they got the "more acceptable" was this "authoritarian" style of warfare. Values regarding "Whats Right" and " Whats Wrong" changed during WW2, and after WW2 the first laws introduced in several European countries was of a strange character, in which most of are still active and in use.
(Ie. Allowing political parties to be banned, denying freedom of speech (Germany is a good example), and more type of laws of this faction, and in most countries it is still there, and in EU in general it is expanding). This things does not mean anything to me personally, but I do think it has a "principal value". In the 1950's the USA Communist Party had 11 000 members, but 2 000 of them was FBI Informants, today we have "Automated Internett Monitoring".
If we keep looking on the history, the in the 1960's we used same type of "style" as Nazi Germany had done in the staged 'Polish' attack on Gleiwitz radio station" ... we did the same in the 1960's in the "The Gulf of Tonkin Incident", and from there on our style just kept deterioration, in 1956 we invaded Egupt to secure the Suez Channel, and in 1989 we did it again in Panama, and lets not Evan mention how many coup d'état we made during the 1970's, until were it is today.. with Invading nations for their Natural Recourses, and kidnapping people (Extraordinary rendition ) in Neutral nations, and Evan from western nations to fly them to pleases like Egypt and Saudi Arabia for "interrogation", and also some incidents of our selfs conducting the Torture on people "who might know someone, who knows something" type of incidents.
A few of the ones kidnapped from European nations has been verified killed by Egypt security police in a specific prison in Egypt. This is the very same type of things as Soviet Union could do, its just that we do it via another nation to keep our hands clean.
So, well sir, im afraid that my respect for western democracy is not "that much higher" then what it is for many other type of Government types, I do however recognize that we "the people" have some sort of idea of what going on around us, something the inhabitants of the various regimes did not have.
So, I guess that my very humble opinion have been influenced by factors like this.
