HOI3

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RE: HOI3

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
ORIGINAL: Widell
ORIGINAL: Joe D.
... what's the point of an ahistorical sim?

Ah! The good old historical versus less historical (or ahistorical) question! Will be fun to watch this discussion unfold and see if there are any new arguments put forward [;)]
I agree...there is plenty of room for ahistorical and historical games.

Historical allows you very little (if any) room for manoeuvre - what exactly is the point? I understand why people want historical and don't mind historical games out there...but I want to see how I can do as Germany. I want to see if the choices I make afford me victory. What's the point in playing it if I know Germany is going to lose? ...

Not that I would deliberately desire to lose from any side, but not winning as the Axis reinforces my belief in both history and humanity; many times I play from a losing position just to see how long I can hold out.

BTW, when HoI was first released, it was way too easy for National Socialism to conquer the world, so Paradox attenuated the game w/events like "Neils Bohr escapes".
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RE: HOI3

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

... There is no real logic to the complaint that it's ahistorical. There is a market for both. The complaint that it's ahistorical is only really a valid complaint if you were sold it as an historical game...otherwise it is what it is.

It wouldnt be the first time marketing and R&D worked at cross-purposes:
HoI is a game, but HttR is a sim.
Or is just semantics?
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RE: HOI3

Post by Widell »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
It wouldnt be the first time marketing and R&D worked at cross-purposes:
HoI is a game, but HttR is a sim.
Or is just semantics?

I think it's mostly semantics, but IMHO, and this may be where many developers fail in their communication: The games/sims/apps/whatever we discuss here are modelling complex events with different degrees of player input after which a "chunk of (game)time" passes and the player gets to provide new input. The chunk of time can be anything from RTS to however long a turn is in a turn based game. What happens within the chunk is a simulation (not a game or anything else!) of event based on the current situation and the player input + a bunch of rules, calculations and a fair degree of randomness. Now, this computer stuff that goes on in the chunk can be more of less complicated and more or less transparent to the player, but it's "within the chunk" that I very much believe the quality of the game/sim/whatever is created. If each turn (yes, even FPS are based on turns, only very, very short ones [:)]) generate a result that the player can accept as reasonable given the flavour of the game/sim/whatever, that's a winning concept! The Panther Games (COTA and HTTR for example) excel in this in my opinion. Then, there are other factors like comparing historical setup versus made up, or even fantasy setups, the length of the turn, truly turnbased to real-time pausible, to FPS, the scale of the operations, the implementation of supply, logistics and reinforcements, production or no production, diplomacy or no diplomacy. Each of these factors may or may not cater to the player's preferences.

HOI to HOI3 has many specific design solutions implemented that make it different, and that means some people (like myself)like it, and other think it pretty much s*cks. However, the issue with HOI3 was/is the unacceptable degree to which the product seems to have been quality assured before release, and that is something completely different from the design choices and the philosophy behind the product. The whole thing has disappointed me a lot, as I am a firm fan of the HOI series, but <paste whatever rant you want about things not working here>.....
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RE: HOI3

Post by GoodGuy »

ORIGINAL: Widell

....chunk of time can be anything from RTS to however long a turn is in a turn based game. What happens within the chunk is a simulation (not a game or anything else!) of event based on the current situation and the player input + a bunch of rules, calculations and a fair degree of randomness. Now, this computer stuff that goes on in the chunk can be more of less complicated and more or less transparent to the player, but it's "within the chunk" that I very much believe the quality of the game/sim/whatever is created. If each turn (yes, even FPS are based on turns, only very, very short ones [:)])....

I wouldn't consider RTS or FPS to be based on turns. Action and reaction in real-time games shouldn't be confused with turns. In particular, if the player is free to move (his character[FPS] or his units[RTS]) anywhere at any time, then you can't refer to such an environment as a turn-based environment. Such an environment isn't a "real-time simultanous turn"-thingy either. Turn-based games carry restrictions and rules real-time simulations don't have. For instance, the fact that FPS single-player games incorporate tons of scripts, or that a certain amount of tiny mouse-movements ("chunks" ;P) are needed, in order to trigger your character's movements or actions, should not mislead you over their real-time core.

You mentioned COTA and HTTR, but although they might seem to be turn-based games under the hood, as scenarios unfold in 1-minute increments, they are not. Imo, this scale had been picked in order to make the scenario flow/progress more convenient for the player, as the player would not see much progress/movement if 1-second-increments would be used. Example: With maps of up to 40km x 50km, say a tank unit would just move a few meters per second only, infantry even less. So even if you would zoom in, movement would be barely visible (if at all).
Whatsoever, such games aren't turn-based, as even the number-crunching under their hoods, means the AI, will constantly assess and reassess the current situation, in an attempt to simulate real battle environments.... in real-time [:)], and not just when the player hits the "done" or "ready" button.

In turn, in RTS, even such "slow" movement speeds won't matter, as the scope of these games is way smaller: You usually command single platoons, or just even individual tanks, so that on this level the movement speed is still acceptable for the player.

In general, it is harder to develop an AI for real-time (or "pausable continuous time") games, as the AI has less time to act and react to the player's actions. This also involves more code, and it may even also involve more sophisticated routines if compared to turn-based games, as the computations have to be done continuously, and immediately after battle conditions have changed (eg. loss of main objective, unexpected losses, etc). And that's where many real-time fail, as in these cases their developers either either not have the resources or the knowledge to implement a decent AI.

A good example for AI-shortcomings in a real-time game would be "Theater of War 2". While this game features rather realistic physics (as it computes the travel path and penetration values of say individual bullets or tank rounds in real time, you often see APC rounds being deflected into the sky) and while it is anything than a RTS game, its AI heavily depends on scripts and its actions (keyword: klutz soldiers) create one or another good laugh (which can be frustrating too, though :P).

In recent RTS games, even in multiplayer skirmishes (where scripts - unlike in SP - are less useful) you'll still find routines that look like scripts, eg. the infamous "AT-gun advance" in "Company of Heros".
While that game's AI does carry some sophisticated and independent routines that will make the squads go for as many flags as possible, continuously, the main behaviour in skirmishes will be, besides producing other units, that it keeps spilling out AT-gun units, making it almost impossible for the player to attack with heavy armor (unless you collect them and try to overwhelm the enemy). So current RTS games rather seem to go for eye-candy and impressive (scripted) SP mission design, than for superb AI routines.
Anyway, RTS, FPS and real-time wargames aren't turn-based games, imho.

In turn[:D], the AI in turn-based games usually has plenty of time to compute movement, possible threats etc., there are even some games which do the number-crunching while the player moves his units, the time needed for all these computations just comes down to the capabilities of the CPU. So, in my books, turn-based AIs can allow themselfs a luxury that real-time (sim)games can't afford. That's why I think that a decent AI in a continuous play game is worth a million more than a superb turn-based AI. [:)]

Because of the differences (where I outlined some above), you can't put RTS, FPS, real-time games and turn-based games in one box and label it "turn-based", or "turn-based chunk container". It doesn't work like that, sorry. [:D]
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RE: HOI3

Post by Ron »

Back to HoI :)

I have been following the Arsenal of Democracy Dev diaries and this is what HoI III should have been I think. Forget the 3D engine, *really* lackluster AI and Army Organization, which could have been great if it actually worked, of Paradox's attempt; this version looks to expand and improve HoI II to its full potential. Of course, it could be all smoke and mirrors, I don't know yet, but they sure have fleshed it out and are promising a much more challenging AI - something all Paradox games are in need of it seems. It is supposed to be released Dec. 17th.



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RE: HOI3

Post by Widell »

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
I wouldn't consider RTS or FPS to be based on turns. Action and reaction in real-time games shouldn't be confused with turns.

Semantics! There it is! I wasn't trying to argue for FPS being turn based, but only that there is code in there somewhere that takes an input, compares to a state, and produce an output, aka finite state machine(s) of some kind. You are most certainly right in all your statements, I was making an argument on a higher level of abstraction and not on the execution of the code itself [:)]
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RE: HOI3

Post by GoodGuy »

ORIGINAL: Widell


Semantics! There it is! I wasn't trying to argue for FPS being turn based, but only that there is code in there somewhere that takes an input, compares to a state, and produce an output, aka finite state machine(s) of some kind. You are most certainly right in all your statements, I was making an argument on a higher level of abstraction and not on the execution of the code itself [:)]

Yes, I know what you had in mind there, I am very well able to abstract there. [:)] But with your statement, it's not necessarily about abstracting things, but about watching things with a magnifying glass and I don't think that this is necessary, so I didn't "zoom in":

Say you play a multiplayer FPS in a LAN, where the clients will process data as you described, they will process tiny chunks, with the server CPU processing the data serially ordered. The only bottleneck would be the LAN cable/conn, as that would be the only part of this set where it takes the "chunks" 5-15 milliseconds (which is still pretty fast) to travel to the server. But the clients still process the local user input within nanoseconds, just like in a single-player game, let alone the code execution (billions of operations per seconds) you want to leave out [:D], hence - with such almost unbelievable short time frames - I'm still referring to it as being real-time, besides the other indicators I described above. With today's multi-core processors it's even more valid, as with these CPUs chunks are effectively being processed parallel.
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RE: HOI3

Post by D.Ilse »

ORIGINAL: LarryP
ORIGINAL: D.Ilse

I shelved mine..for the duration til the modders start tinkering...even then I don't know if there is a real "fix" for the game, to make as playable as HOI2..I wished I had gone for Sins of a Solar Empire instead of HOI3, but I am more of a WWII gamer, than Sci-Fi. Although I did like Empire's STARS when it came out back, back, back in the day. But today noone knows this game even existed it seems.

I don't care for Sins Of A Solar Empire any better than HoI3. It's not full of bugs though.

I figured it was just a better looking Galactic Civilizations II, so that's why I passed on Sin.
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RE: HOI3

Post by Widell »

I agree, and you are of course right. I knew I was kind of stretching the arguments with that comparison [:)]

EDIT: This was of course a response to GoodGuy in our increasingly OT discussion about semantics [:D]
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RE: HOI3

Post by GoodGuy »

Skål! [:D]
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RE: HOI3

Post by killroyishere »

Well for me the only thing that needs to be historical is the starting point. Meaning owned provinces, units, factories, resources, etc. etc. After that everything should be ahistorical every game. From how the ai decides to conduct its wars and battles to the way I conduct mine.
It doesn't bother me that Japan decides to land in southern france or north africa. If the game allows it to happen then it happens. The historians go nuts over this though as "that's not the way it happened in history". Well once again wargames should be whatif's after initial setups not play out like a movie or history book. I'd like to see Japan invade California or Alaska (like it does in Axis & Allies).

Anything and everything should be possible and resources that the Axis never had should be possible to either make or aquire in some games. Operation Sea Lion successful as humans can do it easily in every one of these grand strategic computer games so why not the ai? Battle for Britian won by the Germans instead of Britian all the time.
Most of the time the ai Germany can take out Russia as well and I like this as it makes for a better wargame vs ai Germany when I play as USA or a minor assisting the computer ai USA.

The problem with most of these grand operational games is the ai just doesn't play a good leader as any of them. If you play any major you're going to stomp whatever ai you go up against in them at any difficulty level. But, I have found that Making History has the best high difficulty ai performance mainly based on resources they get. It's certainly challenging enough since they will always get ahistorical resources to build more stuff with.
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RE: HOI3

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
... But, I have found that Making History has the best high difficulty ai performance mainly based on resources they get. It's certainly challenging enough since they will always get ahistorical resources to build more stuff with.

I was not that impressed w/MH, something like a 3D, turn-based HoI that was originally developed for history students.
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RE: HOI3

Post by killroyishere »

I was not that impressed w/MH, something like a 3D, turn-based HoI that was originally developed for history students.

Obviously you didn't play it enough then as it's 10x better than the HOI series because each game is different and I can't wait for MH II. The fact that it is turned based makes it better than the HOI's imo.
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RE: HOI3

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
I was not that impressed w/MH, something like a 3D, turn-based HoI that was originally developed for history students.

Obviously you didn't play it enough then as it's 10x better than the HOI series because each game is different and I can't wait for MH II. The fact that it is turned based makes it better than the HOI's imo.

I pre-ordered MH and was disapointed w/it, so yes, I did not play it that much, but IMO, 3D games are always lacking in gameplay, and this particular game was originally designed for history students, not gamers.

Being turn-based certainly made MH more manageable, but not necessarilly better, than HoI.
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RE: HOI3

Post by LarryP »

I have both Making History and Making History Gold. I spent too much time with the economics of the games. Out of the 300+ games I have owned, I would play MH the least of all of them. I hate the game.
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RE: HOI3

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: LarryP

I have both Making History and Making History Gold. I spent too much time with the economics of the games. Out of the 300+ games I have owned, I would play MH the least of all of them. I hate the game.

You've obviously owned alot of games, so what specifically turned-you off to MH?
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RE: HOI3

Post by LarryP »

The game has the personality of a bottle cap. The economic system requires constant babying. As far as it being anything related to a historical game... that's a joke. It is ahistorical, so if you like to do what the title says, Make History, then the game does that well.

We need 06Maestro to come in here and give us his take on the game. I suggested he buy the game which he did, and he has played it many hours. I owe him the price of the game now. [;)]

However, we are off topic. [8|]
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RE: HOI3

Post by killroyishere »

All wargames of the ilk are ahistorical, MH, GGWAW, HOI, TOW, CEAW etc. etc. nothing new there they all change as we play them. Some are just better than others like Making History which gives a better flavor of ahistorical than the rest. Thus giving the game a lot of replayability over the others as well. As I said he obviously shows he didn't play the game enough to even understand what the principles were about and why it is better than the others. Economy is a major importance in any war I guess he can't handle anything more than beer & pretzels type games.
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RE: HOI3

Post by LarryP »

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

Economy is a major importance in any war I guess he can't handle anything more than beer & pretzels type games.

I can name more war games that you don't manage economy. By far.

Who are you referring to when you say the above?
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RE: HOI3

Post by 06 Maestro »

ORIGINAL: LarryP

The game has the personality of a bottle cap. The economic system requires constant babying. As far as it being anything related to a historical game... that's a joke. It is ahistorical, so if you like to do what the title says, Make History, then the game does that well.

We need 06Maestro to come in here and give us his take on the game. I suggested he buy the game which he did, and he has played it many hours. I owe him the price of the game now. [;)]

However, we are off topic. [8|]

LOL-you don't owe me Larry-I tried the demo for many hours before I bought it. Problem is the demo did not let you get into the silly phase. I made the decision to buy it based on my analysis of the demo. I should have checked out some aar's also.

I thought that Making History had an interesting economic model. I would not say it is more accurate than HoI economics, but it is more interesting to me. What killed the game for me was things like Bulgaria declaring war on France and somehow seizing much of French territory even though Italy had already conquered the area. The diplomatic ai in that game is a comedian-I recall laughing out loud at the game. I did play it for a month or so, but had to give it up-it was like a joke. The one other aspect to MH which I had a hard time accepting (but did for a while) is the Risk like provinces and the way that battles are fought-and casualties taken. Entire divisions are taken as losses-just like in Risk where you loose you pieces. So you stack them up and go for it. Techs do help to add another dimension to it, but only so much. There is no operational decision making in MH-at all. It is purely strategic, but with Alice in Wonderland rationals.

For a grand strategy game I do not have any problem with it being turn based. I am neutral on that issue. If someone is adamant that it must be turn based then there is no sense in looking a HoI.

I have played HoI quite a bit over the last few months. I am quite aware of some of its shortcomings. I am also aware of many good aspects to the game. The HoI ai is not totally idiotic on the operational level-it gives a very good fight-until you break the line. Its ability to stay within historical realms is very limited if left entirely to the ai. However, if you want a historical game you can do that playing as Germany, but you have to utilize the tools to make it happen. In this respect, HoI clearly has MH beat by a mile. The techs and unit construction are light years ahead of MH. The map and unit level allow for operational considerations (cool thing in a war game). There are the historical leaders-hundreds of them with what is suppose to be something of RL traits assigned (tough call there-but it works). MH has none of these important attributes.

Making History has a strange fan base that surfaces once in a while. There was one fellow at Paradox raving (Freudian slip "Sic") about how wonderful MH is. However, the things he was saying about the game made it clear he never played it or even looked at its map. Likewise, he clearly did not own HoI either-some people get their jollies just running their mouth-even if they know they are clueless. I guess they assume everyone else is clueless also.

HoI has some remaining problems. The biggest changes/improvements will no doubt come about from the modding community. There is a large, loyal and very talented group of guy's that will take that base game and turn it into a fantastic strategy game-all in due time. Events can and will be added that will take care of the issues of unhistorical play from nearly every county in the world. I did not care for HoI2 vanilla, but I thought CORE and a couple of other mods made it a great game. The same will happen with HoI3.

As with many of these games (especially grand strategy), playing against humans gives the best results (reducing the importance of the ai). I am planning on doing that soon with HoI. When there is a new CORE mode for HoI then I may go back to SP. This ai problem is not unique to HoI3.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If someone likes MH-good for them, but they should not try to pretend that it compares favorably in its military aspects with HoI-that is over the top. Better economics-yea, I can go for that-trade too, but for war fighting-ain't no way.

BTW, I have saved every PC game I have purchased over the last 11 years-except for 2. I lost one (Distant Guns)due to some stupid DRM restrictions coupled with a total PC crash and Making History which I un-installed.

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