"Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

[samba_liten]

The above is true. It should be less of a problem if you depict soviet air units at the regiment level, as the units in the same regiment usually had the same purpose, whereas the divisions might have 1 fighter regiment and two bomber regiments, for example. Admittedly that is probably more unit slots than most designers would be prepared to spend on air units.

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: Panama

Because of how TOAW handles air units, is it a bad idea to mix different aircraft and types of aircraft? Since the air war is so abstract I've always thought it better to treat it as such and not go into too much detail.

That's been my view up to now, and I've seen that discussed before heading to the same conclusion. The current build of this scenario basically breaks the AFs out by aircraft type, and creates "virtual squadrons" by stacking. Some technical issues arise from mixing aircraft types, like -- what kind of unit icon should the unit have, if it is a mixed type?

If folks have energy to do more digging and continuous improvement (and this scenario has certainly benefited enormously to date) I think it would be at least at interesting to get the artillery on both sides in better shape. Artillery is also currently abstracted in this build to a considerable extent. The game system rewards historicity there, much better than with the air units.

[BigDuke66]

In what way is the artillery abstracted? Is it the load-out or the way they ware organized?

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

In what way is the artillery abstracted? Is it the load-out or the way they ware organized?

Well, the artillery units are labelled "artillery" instead of an historical unit designation (the panzer art units have historical names). And the TO&Es are probably worth a second look to ensure they are reasonably accurate

[samba_liten]

ORIGINAL: briantopp

ORIGINAL: Panama

Because of how TOAW handles air units, is it a bad idea to mix different aircraft and types of aircraft? Since the air war is so abstract I've always thought it better to treat it as such and not go into too much detail.

That's been my view up to now, and I've seen that discussed before heading to the same conclusion. The current build of this scenario basically breaks the AFs out by aircraft type, and creates "virtual squadrons" by stacking. Some technical issues arise from mixing aircraft types, like -- what kind of unit icon should the unit have, if it is a mixed type?

If folks have energy to do more digging and continuous improvement (and this scenario has certainly benefited enormously to date) I think it would be at least at interesting to get the artillery on both sides in better shape. Artillery is also currently abstracted in this build to a considerable extent. The game system rewards historicity there, much better than with the air units.

On closer reflection, (and with apologies for bringing up ever idea that comes into my head - my justification is that it is teaching me how to build my own scenario better) the soviets did lump different aircraft together. Might the disadvantage of doing so in the game not help preserve the historical ability of the LW to maintain air superiority in spite of having fewer a/c?

[Panama]

The problems the Soviets had in the air never had anything to do with numbers of aircraft. In 1942 they out produced the Germans almost 2 to 1. It wasn't until 1944 that the Germans were able to come close to matching Soviet air production. The Soviet problem was one of personel and training. Keeping a Soviet pilot alive long enough to become a good Soviet pilot was more the issue. Perhaps proficiency could mirror that. As long as a Soviet air unit remains on the map it becomes better through combat and increasing proficiency. Maybe start them out with a low proficiency and a veteran status to prevent them from becoming good too fast.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Panama

The problems the Soviets had in the air never had anything to do with numbers of aircraft. In 1942 they out produced the Germans almost 2 to 1. It wasn't until 1944 that the Germans were able to come close to matching Soviet air production. The Soviet problem was one of personel and training. Keeping a Soviet pilot alive long enough to become a good Soviet pilot was more the issue. Perhaps proficiency could mirror that. As long as a Soviet air unit remains on the map it becomes better through combat and increasing proficiency. Maybe start them out with a low proficiency and a veteran status to prevent them from becoming good too fast.

I think that should be the way to go. And see where this leads to.

[Oberst_Klink]

I think the way to distribute artillery, like Brian did, was a good solution. To put'm into the Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe etc. HQs would be less feasible and practicable. For the scale of the scenario and their role, e.g. Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe/Armiya/Fronta level support, that's the best way. Just MHO.

Even with an accurate OOB or TO&E of the different Art.Abt or Batteries attached to the Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe sector; you'd use them to support an attack/defense of the Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe sector.

As you guys might have noticed, I labeled the German Artillery units, the ones attached to the Korps/Armee/Panzergruppe as Art.Pk. = Artillerie Park and the heavy bits simply as sArt.Abt. (heavy artillery battalion). The independent Katyusha units, depending on their size, to Katyusha Brigada or Battalion.

Before the final release pops up, I'll have managed to send Brian a glossary and a short explanation why/how I used the various German/Russian abbreviations.

Anyway. Feedback for my little *and first* localization effort for TOAW is appreciated. And for the record: I just felt like doing it and I appreciate Brian's positive response very much ^5. Thanks lad!

[Oberst_Klink]

VVS part 1

Front Army Unit Source:http://tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1941/19411001.html
Western Front 23 bad
31 sad
43 sad
46 sad
467 sad
Reserve Front
24th 38 sad
10 iap
163 iap
66shap
43rd 10 sad
12 sad
Bryansk Front 24 bap
6 reserve aviation group (1shap+1 bap)
13th 11 sad
60 sad
61 sad
South-Western Front
36 iad pvo
14 sad
19 sad
63 sad
75 sad
76 sad
316 rap
1 reserve aviation group (3 iap, 3 bap, 3 shap)
4 reserve aviation group ( 2 iap, 1 shap, 1bap)

Sehr gut! Очень хорошо!

[Panama]

Soviet artillery will make you crazy.

If the numbers are good then what you have is good enough IMHO.

BTW, the December 41 Rifle Division TO&E eliminated the 76mm AA gun. The AA battalion was represented by 6x37mm AA guns. The regimental AA was represented by 3 truck mounted 12.7mm DShK HMG. The quad Maxims were also removed at this time.

[ColinWright]

This may be of use.  Glantz's Colossus Reborn contains a list of personnel strength figures for specific rifle formations -- expressed as a percent 'fill' of theoretical TO&E.

For my own purposes, I just looked at figures for the period Oct 1941 through Dec 1942.  Then, too, the some of the percentages refer to armies and others to divisions or corps.  Finally, there is no indication of whether the sample might be skewed to units entering and leaving the front as opposed to somewhere in mid-career. 

All that said, the numbers are illuminating.  A total of 109 specific figures are given.  They are distributed as follows.

1-10% fill;   23 units
11-20% fill;   7 units
21-30% fill;   9 units
31-40% fill;   7 units
41-50% fill;   4 units
51-60% fill;   5 units
61-70% fill;  13 units
71-80% fill;  13 units
81-90% fill;  10 units
91-100% fill; 13 units
101% + fill;    5 units

Obviously, people are free to interpret these as they wish. However, I read it as units being built up to between 60% and 100% of theoretical fill, sent into action, and bled white. The ratios are fairly constant -- i.e., the large numbers of 1-10% aren't clustered around major encirclements or anything. The Russians just seem to have sent units into the line and left them there until they were eviscerated.

[BigDuke66]

I'm just going thru production figures but before getting them up here I would like to track down each TOAW equivalent:
Most are already in and some like the Befehlswagen can't be really simulated without modifying the equipment database but I'm unsure about the 3 SP artillery types marked red on this picture.

Any idea if that fits?

[sPzAbt653]

Going by the gun size and light armor rating, that looks reasonable. Don't know why it has a towed looking icon, it should probably be more like the Wespe icon.

[BigDuke66]

Happy new year gentlemen!

Finally finished collecting some production figures, I hope these are helpful for tweaking the production.
As Excel file(if needed I can provide a PDF), discussion and feedback welcome.
https://rapidshare.com/files/823826979/ ... eeres.xlsx

An important point is that when using the average production number the timeframe should be checked.
Good example is StuG III F & G (SdKfz 142/1) & (SdKfz 142/1), using numbers for the complete timeframe we land at 32,42 per turn but using only the timeframe up to May we land at 12,69 per turn.
So every timeframe that is not completely covered by the scenario should be take into account that production usually started with very low numbers and most maxed out in the last quarter of the production.
Tiger is again a good example were monthly production in Early 1944 was as high as the complete production in 1942 and almost as high as the complete first quarter of 1943.

[briantopp]

Here is an updated build of "Battle for Moscow".

This build learns from a playtest I conducted over the Christmas holidays. I played OKW/OKH against an elmer-controlled Stavka. My strategy was to find a winter line short of Moscow by early to mid-November 1941, and then to press a second offensive in the spring of 1942. I decided my "winter line" would be the fortifications of the Mozhaisk position west of Moscow. I fought a wild battle in October and November to get to a decent winter line -- elmer was very good at pressing both flanks of the German position, and at trying to defend a line around Borodini-Mozhaisk. Eventually however I was able to take the bulk of this position, and build a solid line of infantry in those fortifications. What happened then was pretty remarkable to see. The Soviets threw themselves against those fortifications, loosing repeatedly, taking 20-60% casualities in round after round of combat. Basically, the Soviet winter offensive broke its teeth against those forts. Every once in awhile they'd take one, but at such a high price I could almost always take them back. Meanwhile, the German units, all sitting comnfortably in defensive positions the whole length of the front, regenerated to full strength. By spring the Soviets were a hollow shell, easily rolled up.

This edit reflects lessons learned:

- The numerous fortifications previously on the map probably aren't accurate and can (as this playthrough demonstrates) given a false advantage to the German player, since they can provide an ideal (and historically unavailable) winter line. So I have removed most of them, replacing them with field fortifications. should promote a more mobile battle, provide better play balance and probably more accurate.

- I have reduced German first winter supply to avoid an overly-quick rebuild and regeneration of Axis units in the depths of that winter.

- I have given the Soviets a shock event to make the first Soviet winter offensive a little more historically effective.

- Various tweaks to event announcements to correct some errors in announcement timing.

Thank you for the production info Big duke i'll dig into it when I'm back from a road trip -- probably towards the end of the month.

[BigDuke66]

Hey Brian is 1.93 still the latest version?
Finally have some time to make a run with this scenario and want to make sure I'm up-to-date.

[governato]

Hey BigDuke, could you repost the files? The link is broken , but they would be really useful for developers.
Thanks!

[BigDuke66]

Yea took it off my own webspace as I change provider next month.
Is an Excel file enough or do you need it as PDF?

https://rapidshare.com/files/1538904477 ... eeres.xlsx

[governato]

awesome! Tx!

-F

[patton1950]

This thread seems to have come to a halt....is 1.93 the last and final build of BfM??