HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed.

[sillyflower]

Just because I accused you of poisoning children is no excuse for accusing me of being the sort of person who subscribes to any sort of 'social media' as I understand they are called *shudder*

PS the 2 smaller dogs are girls (I'm not allowed to use the 'b' word on pain of domestic violence). They have the same mum. I thought you knew dogs can't read. I had to get your good lady wife to send me some of your cologne which I then squirted on Misty - the one on the receiving end.

Was Lucy your girl dog?

[HITMAN202]

TURN 25 ... TURN 25 ... TURN 25 ..... TURN 25

Quick turnaround with a lot less to do. First turn of blizzard. Stable,continuous front retreating two hexes per turn





Comrade Sillyflower, that OSS hottie has you so smitten that all you think about is .... well I don't want to be banned from this board. I bet you end up marrying the lass. "Lucy" was the he/she that "miss pantyhose" (I hope she is a miss) stuck a knife into after some mislead Gestapo head directed he/she to eliminate your British lass.. The Gestapo should have sent she/he after you.

[HITMAN202]

AGC's front is tight and taking two steps back also.

[HITMAN202]

And finally AGS, where the action will be





I can imagine MT shaking his head, as I know that he disapproves of my full blown retreat, but part of my rational is to see what an ultra safe approach can achieve. If it works it can be a big help to Axis NOOBES facing their first blizzard. On the other hand if it doesn't work it can be an example of what not to do.

[HITMAN202]

And the numbers





The running infantry morale dropped to just above 79.1, an almost 1.4 hit. Ouch. I've got 8 infantry divisions in safe keeping. Also i'm surprised that I have all but a hand full of Pz/Mot divisions in safe haven, but close to the front if needed. I didn't think I could do that.

One good thing I've noticed; no Russian guard units. In fact I doubt THEPROS have a single division with more than 5 victories. That will change; too soon for my liking.

I'm going to be watching Disgruntled Vet/THEPROS AAR closely. It seems that Sillyflower is going to give a runnng seminar on what and why and how he (and Sean) handles the Soviets. It could be the best AAR yet. Guess whom I'm pulling for ????

[Peltonx]

Morale is King.

Keep it up and a draw is in the making.

You need to start considering disbanding stuff soon.

It will = about 300,000 more men going into rifle squads and the ones that stay in support units add to CV.

I would keep Art and AA TOE at 91%, once you get that far I will fill you in as per your requests.

Play it safe then you need to pocket 100 divisions, the AP's will greatly slow down Red 2.0.

Your doing great on the morale front and keeping morale from SHC.

[HITMAN202]

Experience in WITE means everything. Pelton thinks it takes at least 3 complete (conclusive ???) campaign games to get a feel for WITE. In spite of a lot of thoughtful prep, there are already 6 things I would do differently in the next game. These include some real weird ideas, so please comment unmercifully (behave yourself Sillyflower or I find another "Lucy.")

1) Start AGS blizzard fall back line as soon as I get to Z and D-town (turn 11-13, no later than 13)

2) Not retreat until the last snow turn (MT is right you can't just run like I am doing) and in AGS, particularly in the clear terrain 15-25 hexes north of the Black Sea, create a single row of forts (possibly every other hex) with a 2 hex buffer zone; forcing the Soviets to expose themselves if they attack in order to...

3) Play an anti-attrition '41 summer offensive , focussing on grabbing Soviet terrain and minimizing casualties. Specifically THEPROS killed me with attrition, up to 25,000 casualties a turn not due to direct combat. I haven't tested my assumption but I believe the Axis suffer 50-100 casualties per division when they end or begin a turn in an enemy ZOC. Granted, attrition is also due to expended MP's and supply status, but the ZOC attrition is a biggie IMO (but untested.) It would affect how I would hit Soviet strongholds; exposing stacked hexes to ZOCs.

4) Worry less about the morale of units that will get exposed to the first blizzard, focussing more on building up the "elite" infantry and Pz's and perserving them during the first blizzard. Buildup of morale in '42 would be a biggie. Preservation of German forces during blizzard is probably more important than the '41 offense (which is, none-the-less, crucial.)

5) Don't be obsessed with Soviet casualties. I was shocked to read MT caused only 2.3 mill casualties to Kamil during his incredibly successful '41 offense. Only 2.3 mill ??? But look what he accomplished. An aside ... Flaviusx often points to MT's incredible success as the Axis in the summer/fall of '41 as proof that the game needs to have a '41 "fix." I disagree. If the best WITE Axis can't destroy an imperfect Soviet '41 effort, then the game needs a "fix."

6) Focus on killing divisions during the 3 winter turns. A good '41 winter O is a biggie. I don't think THEPROS would have allowed it, but I didn't even try. Not good.

The list will grow....

[Peltonx]

1. Good stuff
2. ?
3. Yes advance as far as possible as fast a possible in the south. For all SHC tactics to cause attrition loses you have the normal OOB for GHC +3.25 million. The only artition loses that matter are loses to GHC infantry morale. You can gain 300,000 men worth of rifle squads using standard defensive set-up.
4. Very wrong. GHC infantry morale has to be as high as possible across the board. If you have 10-20 divisions with poor morale they never get it back and leave weak spots in your lines that good SHC will find and then hammer away on.9 infantry is all that needs to be pulled off the lines and the MoT/panzer units. The 9 inf divisions can easly stop any push in the lines aka Pelton vs MT or any of my other 43+ AAR's. This causes SHC to push the hole line west and just not a bubble. SHC forses are very slow and can't be rushed around as GHC forses can. This makes controlling SHC push easy. Yes the lines will break, but will hold for a very long time. Then its a game of trading time for space.

Good example of this strategy can be found on this AAR: Pelton 3.5m vs Hugh 9.5m Jan 1944

tm.asp?m=3146387

This dispite all the bugs in the game which gimped GHC, which have been fixed the last 3 patchs.

Very right, preservation of "CV" aka morale during blizzard can be game set match for SHC.
5. MT,s game vs Kamil is far from over and MT will easly cause 3+ million KIA to SHC by Dec 1941. The min is 3 million. this has never changed.
6. This starts in September 1941. Whatever you pocket do not wipe out until after the 1st snow turn, this begins the AP crunch.

GHC players can get draws easyer then you think.

1. Farm morale
2. Retreat during blizzard 1 hex per turn north of Oka and 2 hexes per turn south. If you have an amazing 41 summer less ground can be given. Its all about morale/min losses. The lost ground can in most cases be recovered during snow turns.
3. Destroy as many AP as possible during 42 summer 1200 is a good number and farm morale.
4. Convert over to defensive set-up by October 42.

I have played far more games into 1943+ then anyone and know what it takes for a draw. MT is clearly the best at 41/42 wins, but these strategies are out of reach for most.

MT's stand and fight idea for the blizzard are simply ideas that work vs poor blizzard O SHC players. He has yet to face what is the standard SHC OOB during blizzard- 5+ million SHC troops with a good SHC O player in charge.

I can't refute anything MT says about 1941 simply based on the cold hard facts, he has done it and doing it in game after game.

But his blizzard ideas and late war ideas are ideas only. No fault of his own.

[sillyflower]

6.25M Russians can't be wrong as they head for Magdeburg: so much easier to take than Berlin and brings auto victory. anyway, someone told Sean Lucy lives there.

As weasel words turn into rabbit runaway there are few combats. 1 Russian div commander turned a base 3.5:1 into a loss as his men lost all confidence in him. No dog pictures this turn as they are eating.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Experience in WITE means everything. Pelton thinks it takes at least 3 complete (conclusive ???) campaign games to get a feel for WITE. In spite of a lot of thoughtful prep, there are already 6 things I would do differently in the next game. These include some real weird ideas, so please comment unmercifully (behave yourself Sillyflower or I find another "Lucy.")

1) Start AGS blizzard fall back line as soon as I get to Z and D-town (turn 11-13, no later than 13)

2) Not retreat until the last snow turn (MT is right you can't just run like I am doing) and in AGS, particularly in the clear terrain 15-25 hexes north of the Black Sea, create a single row of forts (possibly every other hex) with a 2 hex buffer zone; forcing the Soviets to expose themselves if they attack in order to...

3) Play an anti-attrition '41 summer offensive , focussing on grabbing Soviet terrain and minimizing casualties. Specifically THEPROS killed me with attrition, up to 25,000 casualties a turn not due to direct combat. I haven't tested my assumption but I believe the Axis suffer 50-100 casualties per division when they end or begin a turn in an enemy ZOC. Granted, attrition is also due to expended MP's and supply status, but the ZOC attrition is a biggie IMO (but untested.) It would affect how I would hit Soviet strongholds; exposing stacked hexes to ZOCs.

4) Worry less about the morale of units that will get exposed to the first blizzard, focussing more on building up the "elite" infantry and Pz's and perserving them during the first blizzard. Buildup of morale in '42 would be a biggie. Preservation of German forces during blizzard is probably more important than the '41 offense (which is, none-the-less, crucial.)

5) Don't be obsessed with Soviet casualties. I was shocked to read MT caused only 2.3 mill casualties to Kamil during his incredibly successful '41 offense. Only 2.3 mill ??? But look what he accomplished. An aside ... Flaviusx often points to MT's incredible success as the Axis in the summer/fall of '41 as proof that the game needs to have a '41 "fix." I disagree. If the best WITE Axis can't destroy an imperfect Soviet '41 effort, then the game needs a "fix."

6) Focus on killing divisions during the 3 winter turns. A good '41 winter O is a biggie. I don't think THEPROS would have allowed it, but I didn't even try. Not good.

The list will grow....

1 Disagree. You can't prepare a defence line before you take the ground [:'(].

2 You didn't retreat until the last snow turn. I don't think forts in alternate hexes will ever be a good idea.

3 You have to reduce the red army in '41 by killing units and/or capturing shed loads of manpower centres. I agree with Pelton that you need 3M Russian casualties before blizzard unless you do severe economic damage. 3M was always my minimum target and I always bettered it. Crucially it then means a weak blizzard O which sets up '42.

4 These are not opposing concepts. Cripple Soviets in '41 and you will be safe in the blizzard.

5 See 3 earlier. I disagree unless you optimise supply rule implementation like MT so cover the ground like he can.

6 Focus in Nov '41 must be on disrupting blizzard O, however you can, unless you can take a major objective. At least your masterly inactivity in the snow turns surprised us.

7 Your other error was not to have surrendered, before retiring like Cincinnatus (without the fame) to tend your garden.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

I'm going to be watching Disgruntled Vet/THEPROS AAR closely. It seems that Sillyflower is going to give a runnng seminar on what and why and how he (and Sean) handles the Soviets. It could be the best AAR yet. Guess whom I'm pulling for ????

I thought you only ever pulled Mrs H, or are you using an American idiom that I am pretending I don't understand? Your readers have a right to know

You will, of course, be hoping we win as there is no disgrace in losing where others have lost. To lose to those who were beaten by DV would really put you down the pecking order.

[HITMAN202]

I dont understand, "I thought you only pulled Mrs H." I figure Mrs H. is my boss, but the first part is greek to me. Please explain. Also you wrote " an American idiom i am pretending I don't understand"; is this the way english barristers ( lawyerspeak) feign ignorance ??


Now about "your reader" thing. Silly flower, you are the star of the show! I am just a Newbie, "down on the pecking order."  See you are abusing me again. And "my readers" understanding what I wrote ??? I have enough trouble getting my six children and the gaggle of women in my office for to understand, ie. do what I want. Why a gaggle? Geese and ducks honk incessently.


Finally, I want to poll the readers to see if this is cheesy (Dec '41.) None-the-less I will fight to the death.

[Michael T]

One man's cheese is anothers fillet steak

[smokindave34]

I don't think its cheesy - I believe the Soviets used airdrops quite a bit during the first winter. Most of my Soviet opponents have used airdrops on me during the blizzard. Sorry Hitman - I'm still pulling for you!

[HITMAN202]

Well, the poll will vote red meat MT. THEPROS are teaching me a lot.

I'm going to defend my 7 points that Pelton and Sillyflower unsuccessfully tried to shoot to pieces.

#1) No problema amigos.

#2) I didn't explain it well but it goes along with ...

#3) Both Pelton and Sillyflower did not specifically deal with the issue I raised ... Axis attrition. It's never discussed and I believe it's important. Attrition accounts for over 60 % of total German casualties and things that the Axis can do to minimize it I have never seen discussed. Rules 9.4-9.5 and 22.3 have never been specifically discussed. I raised the issue of ZOC attrition. It was ignored. Pelton talked about morale and Sillyflower Soviet losses.

#4) This is where I strongly disagree with Pelton. Sillyflower ignored what I said and restated the need for 3 milll Soviet casualties to lessen the impact of blizzard.
Pelton and I agree that you need to preserve several Corp of high morale infantry (basically the I and II Corp.) It's important. But morale for the other divisions is going to be ripped to shreads during the 3 months of blizzard. You don't ignore morale during the summer and fall of '41 , but the key is building it back up in '42. This has not been disscussed and is key a to high morale infantry in '42. That was my point. Pelton didn't address it. Also lessening the attrition during the blizzard and addressing specific strategies to achieve it has been largely ignored. That what issue #4 is all about.

#5) I have no blizzard experience, but does it really matter if the Soviets have only 2.3 mill losses, or 2.6, or 3.0 ???? The attacking units can have only so many troops. Now if fewer Soviet losses meant more units, that would matter. But with THEPROS 6.0 mill army, would 700,000 fewer make the blizzard less of a German ordeal ??? I'm ignorant of this phase of WITE, but I think not.

#6) There's no conflict here, but Sillyflower, if I could do zippo at the end of summer against your fort network how could a three turn winter O accomplish more ??? In regards to "disrupting the blizzard O" preparation is the key (which I did), not banging your head against a line of level 3 forts. Argue that my friend.

#7) I'm determined to play (and learn). Massive heart attacks in THRPROS would swing things in my favor. This is unlikely. I might be in error not to surrender, but admit it Sillyflower, you would be disappointed. By the way, I do have a gardener.

Let MT or Flaviusx adjudicate these issues.

[Michael T]

Honestly Hitman I would not worry about your attrition losses in summer 1941. The Reds will lose more than you in 1941 to attrition. If you are offensively minded in 41/42 then having the Reds lose men to attrition (even at a cost to you) is good. You should only concern yourself with putting your troops in position to attack or gain as much ground as soon as possible. Besides the Axis disabled pool comes back twice as fast as the Reds and that's where most attritional loses end up. I have done tests on attrition and you are right in that German ID's lose around 50-100 guys on average. But high quality units lose much less. Conversely low quality Red units lose men in the many 100's each turn to attrition. I want to park next to them. The more Reds going to the disabled pool the better. Even in the blizzard I want to see Reds leaving the map due to attrition. The lower the Soviet OOB is in 42 the better. This is why you must fight through the winter where you can. What's better, a 3.0 m German OOB v a 5.5 m Soviet OOB in 1942 or 3.5 v 7.0+ ? If I am attacking I want the former if I can manage it. You want that Red line as thin as possible in 1942. Whether you as German have 3 or 3.5 doesn't make much difference as long as you still have a sword to thrust and slash with.

Sadly your situation is probably beyond help. But Soviet super high morale has hurt you in the summer. Next time around unless a fix comes along you need to negotiate some morale adjustments in the setup. Otherwise just play Russian

[HITMAN202]

Thanks MT. Experience means everything.

At least I went down for the count fighting. But this is an important principle (I teach NP's and medical students often)l, ...It's better to make a wrong decision with good reasoning, than a good decision with bad reasoning. You can learn from the first. You can't the later. In fact in the case of the later, the worst medical practitioner is produced... one who doesn't know what he doesn't know. They are dangerous. It's obvious I don't know a lot, but I'm not a fool to think I do.

MT directly addressed my misunderstandings. Pelton and Sillyflower were correct' but didn't address my thoughts. Yet they have been helpful teachers in their own way. Pelton holds your hand gently, Sillyflower is less kind, but does it with great elan. I do prefer the later .

[Peltonx]

If that's all SHC has they are in trouble keep with drawing.

Just route them with your panzers then go back into the city.

[Belphegor]

Your poll is asking a biased question; shame on you. [:-]

your image should show that I used 2 airborne brigades, not just the one showing. The other airborne brigade will show that I ensured a supply line to my troops.

Your image only shows the surviving unit (the other being displaced as a result of being depleted during the drop and running to get out of the way of a stampeding German division running from something after losing a fight....

I'm happy to hear what the forum has to say on the matter, but only if I'm represented fairly. [:'(]

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

I don't think its cheesy - I believe the Soviets used airdrops quite a bit during the first winter. Most of my Soviet opponents have used airdrops on me during the blizzard. Sorry Hitman - I'm still pulling for you!

Agreed. This is exactly what the Soviets were doing with paradrops at this time. They came very close to wrecking AGC with the help of those drops.

The blizzard has a lot of problems, however. The problem here isn't paradrops, per se, but rather the way the game depicts the blizzard generally, along with the entire logistical model.