Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Froonp]

Good reading FinnOlavFosse, thank you for that.

Arendal seems to be a quite important city and port, but ADG designers have chosen to leave it out of the picture. Maybe this is because of Kristiansand, that is near, and having 2 minor ports so near was something they did not want.
I do not know.

I attached a map of the area, showing the operations (from the Oxford Companion to WWII), and it does show the place, but does not show it was an axis of conquest of the Germans.
Maybe it becomes secondary in the big picture I don't know neither.

Well, anyway, I think that adding ports in tha area covered by the European scaled WiF FE maps is out of the picture for the game.

Opinions ?


By the way, look at how the Stockholm area is represented on this map. The Mälaren does not look as a Lake, and I hope we were not wrong in changing the area there, because it looks here as it looks on the WiF FE maps.

[jesperpehrson]

It is a lake separated from the sea by a lock ("slusses")

The gap on the map you posted Patrice does not represent it very well though.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: capitan
It is a lake separated from the sea by a lock ("slusses")
The gap on the map you posted Patrice does not represent it very well though.

I hope you're right, in the 40s especially [:)]

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: capitan
It is a lake separated from the sea by a lock ("slusses")
The gap on the map you posted Patrice does not represent it very well though.

I hope you're right, in the 40s especially [:)]

The first one was built in 1637 so I guess it will cover it

[Froonp]

Great, thanks !

[Ilves]

I didn't have time to read all the posts and hopefully this isn't posted yet, but before Winterwar the second largest city in Finland was Viipuri (Vyborg) with population of 80.000

1940 Espoo had only population of 13.378
Vantaa 31.511
Turku +60.000
Tampere some 40.000-50.000 ?

In 1940 only 9.6 %(2006 only 5 %) of the total population of Finland spoke Swedish as a first language. 90 % were Finnish speakers. Most of the Swedish speaking people live in the coastal areas. Last time Finns where under Swedish rule was before 1809. I think 99% of Swedish speaking Finns understands Finnish. So the correct way to write all Finnish names is to write them in Finnish and maybe put the Swedish name in brackets if needed.

Yes, I'm a Finn. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

I read further in Wikipedia and noticed now that the ranks of the Finnish cities are:
1. Helsinki(560.000)
2. Espoo (230.000). City is located very close to Helsinki
3. Tampere (200.000)
4. Vantaa (185.000). City is located very close to Helsinki
5. Turku (175.000).

I think that the cities of Espoo and Vantaa have had a bigger increase in population since WW2 than Tampere and Turku, being so close to the capital Helsinki. Therefore I don't think they should belong on any WW2 map. They would be in the same hex as Helsinki anyway.

Turku was the former capital in Finland (before 1812) and seems to not grow as quickly as the other cities. Tampere is growing quickly maybe partly because of the big company Nokia being located there.

In 1940 there was only 65.000 inhabitants in Turku according to Wikipedia.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85bo

So maybe it's enough to add Turku only as a port.

About using the Swedish or Finnish names for the Finnish cities I prefer to use the Finnish names. Most people outside Scandinavia use Helsinki (not Helsingfors) and it's printed Helsinki on the WIFFE maps. Vyborg is the Russian spelling of the city. Maybe it's printed the Russian way because the city is Russian most time of the game.

It's a pity we don't have a Finnish player on this forum who could tell us exactly how things are. I read in Wikipedia that in Turku about 90% of the population speaks Finnish. Only 5% speaks Swedish. The Finnish cities have Swedish names probably from the time Finland was under Swedish control. But that was a long time ago and Finland became a Grand Duchy in 1809 under control by Russia. Only in 1917 Finland got its liberty.

I think most WW2 maps use the Finnish names for the Finnish cities. Maybe to avoid the "troublesome" Swedish lletters ä, å and ö.

[bj_rohde]

The two hexes north of Trondheim should have a strait hexside between them. That strait is narrower than many other straits in WiF. The western hex of those two might even have a straits hexside to the hex directly west of Trondheim, but the fjord is wider there so maybe not. It's only half the width of the gibraltar strait, though. Since the fjords are so much more intricately drawn on this scale, any existence or non-existence of straits in the Trondheimsfjord will have consequenses for a norwegian campaign in MWiF.

Bjarne

[marcusm]

Can this map be modded? It should say Göteborg not Gothenburg.

Look here if you need information
http://www10.goteborg.se/english/

No such thing as Gothenburg exists or ever existed, only among those who thought it
would sound cooler in English. Official name is Göteborg, period. There is a Gothenburg in
USA though. It gives the wrong impression that it has anything to do with Goths whe it is in fact Väst-Götar.

Finland is a different case since it is bi-lingual, Sweden is not (although you find Sami/Finnish named cities up north).

Please correct this. Unless this turned into a fantasy game suddenly?

Obviously it's Norrköping and not Norrkoping as well.

[hakon]

The question of what name should be used, should be based on what would be most easily recognized in English speaking countries at the time of WW2.

My impression, is that Gothenburg is more widely used than Göteborg, at least it is the name used by Wikipedia (english version):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4str ... and_County
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothenburg

Any comments from native English speakers?

[marcusm]

I do not deny that the term has been used (which explains why the Wikipedia article is incorrect). Doesn't
make it right. I expect people to accept the official name which the home page www.goteborg.se clearly displays
in both English and Swedish.

We are talking about a name that has been in use since 1621 after all so it's no new ruse . Nevermind if certain "historical" variants have been used. It's Göteborg now it was Göteborg during WW2 so it would be 100% accurate to use Göteborg and 0% accurate to use Gothenburg. Is this a realistic WW2 game or a fantasy game, that is the question.

This page better explains the history and may explain the mistaken name to some (those who read Swedish that is).
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6teborgs_historia

[marcusm]

And actually. If I were a Dane I would have prefered København instead of
Copenhagen. Again, other cities are localised so why not these?

I don't think "commonly used" is a good excuse. Accuracy should always be the rule of thumb.

This Google Map explains how I would have liked the naming convention. Just for fun, search for Gothenburg and it will first point out Gothenburg USA, shows why it shouldn't be used, confuses American tourists .

[Froonp]

Well, if I believe this page, if we went for Göteborg, we should have to go for a whole lot of other changes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_exonyms

Antwerpen for Antwerp
Ammochostos-Gazimaðusa for Famagusta (Cyprus)
Praha for Prague
København for Copenhagen
Hannover for Hanover
Köln for Cologne
München for Munich
Nürnberg for Nuremberg
Rhein for Rhine River
Athina for Athens
Rodos for Rhodes
Firenze for Florence
Genova for Genoa
Livorno for Leghorn
Milano for Milan
Napoli for Naples
Roma for Rome
Sardegna for Sardinia
Sicilia for Sicily
Siracusa for Syracuse
Torino for Turin
Venezia for Venice
Warszawa for Warsaw
Açores for Azores
Lisboa for Lisbon
Bucureþti for Bucharest
Arkhangelsk for Archangel
Moskva for Moscow
Sevilla for Seville
Zaragoza for Saragossa
Bern for Berne
Zürich for Zurich
Gelibolu for Gallipoli
Ýzmir for Smyrna
Üsküdar for Scutari

Even the countries would have their names needing to be changed.

I agree some names on the map are localized, like Aachen instead of Aix-la-Chapelle or Porto instead of Oporto, but if I were do decide a change it would be to use the English exonyms were ever possible and not the local names, that only the locals are familiar with.
My birth place is Marseille (French name), and it's not problem for me to have it spelled Marseiles (English exonym) on the MWiF map.

This said, the names are moddable, you can change them in a simple CSV file.

[hakon]

This is what webster gives when you search for Gothenburg:

http://www.webster.com/dictionary/gothenburg

Main Entry: Gö·te·borg
Pronunciation: \ˌyœ-tə-ˈbȯr-ē\
Variant(s): or Goth·en·burg \ˈgä-thən-ˌbərg\
Function: geographical name
city & port SW Sweden on the Kattegat population 474,921

I'm pretty sure that if it's in webster, it's official English, even though it's currently considered a variant. Note that Gothenburg in the US doesn't even show up. Furthermore, I am pretty sure that Gothenburg in the US is indeed named after Göteborg.

I seem to recall that the localized vs anglicized discussion has already been done (a year or two ago), and I seem to remember that rules of thumb similar the following were to be used:
- The name chosen should be the one most easily recognized by the majority of wif players (if possible)
- For places that have changed name, the one most commonly used during WW2 should usually be chosen. (Ie Siam, not Thailand, Peking not Bejing)
- The names used in the board game should not be changed without a very good reason.
- Since the game is in English, names should usually be anglicized, if it doesn't contradict the first rule. Exceptions to this rule are allowed when creating richer "flavour", or when inherited from the board game.

Does anyone have a more accurate list of rules?

Anyway, if you want to localize more names, it should be done to a lot of names the map. Ie Rome->Roma, Vienna->Wien, Venice->Venezia, Milan->Milano, Lyons->Lyon, Cologne->Köln, Munich -> München, Warsaw->Warzawa, Moscow->Moskva, Kiev->Kyiv, Athens->Athina, Alexandria->Al-Iskandariya etc etc, and I'm not sure we want that?

Edit : Seems like Patrice beat me to my last point

[jesperpehrson]

I am from Gothenburg and I am totally ok with MWIF using the "english version" of the name. It is not only used by people on the street but also by officials. Gothenburg is fine!

[composer99]

Having an Anglicised version of a city's name does not, in and of itself, turn WiF:FE/MWiF into a "fantasy" game. That kind of rhetorical over exaggeration is plain sophistry, which is a poor way of arguing a point.
 
At the end of the day, Patrice's point stands: the city names can be altered at will, so if you would rather use Göteborg or Moskva or either the Hebrew or Arabic name for Jerusalem, you can. Whatever floats your boat.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcusm

And actually. If I were a Dane I would have prefered København instead of
Copenhagen. Again, other cities are localised so why not these?

I don't think "commonly used" is a good excuse. Accuracy should always be the rule of thumb.

This Google Map explains how I would have liked the naming convention. Just for fun, search for Gothenburg and it will first point out Gothenburg USA, shows why it shouldn't be used, confuses American tourists .

Marcusm,

I hope you will realize from the comments to your posts, that we take your concerns very seriously. By we, I speak not only for myself and Patrice but also all the regular readers of the MWIF forum.

Now, in fact, the majority doesn't agree with your preference for a name change to Goteburg (sorry, I do not have the ability to generate non-standard English characters). Their reasons are presented fairly clearly I believe.

We have had this discussion with Spanish speakers about names used for Spanish cities and with Finnish speakers who dislike the use of the Swedish variants for their city names. I do not believe we made any changes in response to those requests. We did make a lot of changes to names of cities in China, but all those cities had anglicized names to start with, since they are not shown using the Chinese character set. Nor are the name of the Japanese cities written using any of their character sets.

I have delegated decisions about the map to Patrice who (on his own time) has done a ton of work on the world map, especially in Scandinavia. The WIF FE maps for Scandinavia we started from presented a lot of problems geographically and dozens of people were involved in transforming a badly distorted map into something closer to reality. We made those decisions by group consensus whenever possible and by majority rule when we couldn't get unanimity.

And that is the philosophy I am using for most decisions concerning MWIF. We ask for help and favor the opinions of knowledgeable people and/or those with the strongest reasons.

Personal experience with geographic locales carried/carries a lot of weight in our decision making. Which is one reason we take your conern seriously. And yet we still come to the conclusion that the anglicized variant on the name of your home city is the best match with how cities, rivers, countries, and other map locations are named in MWIF around the world.
============
This substitution of your own choice of names will work in most cases, but as the programmer I must point out that there are some city names that can not be changed because that would affect the code. Automatic victory cities are one example. And also cities that have reserves or city bsed volunteeers associated with them. For instance, the Leningrad reserve unit can only set up in Leningrad. If you change the name to St. Petersburg, the program won't know where the unit should set up.

[marcusm]

Because Composer. This is not an English city, never was never will be. Argument stands.
It is sometimes called Lilla London as well btw, would that be good on the map? How about GBG?

Froonp: There is a difference(between most examples), those cities do in fact have "international" double names. Göteborg never had (except people in the street then).

Göteborg is a trademark. It is the name used when advertising this city(contrary to Moscow, Rome and Cologne for instance). The name everyone here (riktiga Göteborgare, not moved in Stockholmers)
uses. Whenever the term Gothenburg is used, it is used wrongly, doesn't matter if "people on the streets" uses it.

Conclusion. Hakon, Shannon etc. Please read the English text on the official homepage of Göteborg
http://www10.goteborg.se/english/

If you find Gothenburg anywhere then you have convinced yourself .

I have not anywhere said that people doesn't use the term Gothenburg. I am just saying it isn't official and
I mean anywhere in official papers. We can all make mistakes it's just about correcting them. Hence I am being helpful here.

People call New York NYC as well. Does World in Flames use NYC as a term? How about Washington(the state) instead
of Washington D.C? See my point. Popular use doesn't make it right.

Worst case I will just mod the stuff myself.

[marcusm]

As I also said btw. It is not the end of the world for me, I can mod such things for my own sake (AAR:s at least).
I am sure this will be a great game anyway.

[hakon]

marcusm:

It doesn't really matter what is official in Sweden/Swedish. What matters, is what is official in England/English. WiF is not an official diplomatic document where diplomatic etiquette has to be observed, but closer to something like a novel. And just like a novel, the game itself has a native language. And this native language is not Swedish, but English.

And since Gothenburg clearly is an official exonym for Göteborg IN ENGLISH (pardon the shouting), it is also appropriate for WiF.

By the way, from my limited knowledge of swedish history, it is not clear that Gothenburg is without basis in history, either. While the word göte (English geat, i believe) should not be mistaken for the word goth or got (like in Gotland), the göte (geat) ethnic group have afaik considered themselves (quite officially) to be a subgroup of the goth people throughout much of known history.

Articles related to the origin of the goths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza

Note that in the Scandza section, the geat are called geat-goths, which could help explain the origin of the word Gothenburg, and that also indicates that the source is not necessarily a case of mixing up the words goth with göte because of linguistic simmilarity.

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: marcusm

Froonp: There is a difference(between most examples), those cities do in fact have "international" double names. Göteborg never had (except people in the street then).

Göteborg is a trademark. It is the name used when advertising this city(contrary to Moscow, Rome and Cologne for instance). The name everyone here (riktiga Göteborgare, not moved in Stockholmers)
uses. Whenever the term Gothenburg is used, it is used wrongly, doesn't matter if "people on the streets" uses it.

I have not anywhere said that people doesn't use the term Gothenburg. I am just saying it isn't official and
I mean anywhere in official papers. We can all make mistakes it's just about correcting them. Hence I am being helpful here.

I browsed the web for 5 minutes and found that both Saeve and Landvetter Airport, the Gothenburg Restaurants association, the official touristinformation for Sweden(visitsweden.com) plus of course any number of companies use Gothenburg as well as Goteborg when writing in english(i am abroad so no correct spelling ).

It is not exactly a huge issue either way but to deny that Gothenburg is being used by many different people, from the street to the official, is denying reality. If I recall correctly it was also used in Friidrotts EM 1992.