Islands of Destiny: RA 5.0 Japanese Side

[John 3rd]

Chickenboy and Hans are dead right as to Musashi and Nagato. Nagato is stuck because of the stupid upgrade but Musashi will be able to move tomorrow. She'll be escorted down to Soerabaja. Since the SYS damage is not major, the repairs should work without issue. We'll work to get her back into decent form and then try to bring her back...

Nagato will have to be used as a bomber bait. Very sad...

[John 3rd]

When I get to my turn this morning I intend to publish my production numbers for all current aircraft. Figure this is a good chance for people to see late-war numbers, get yelled at for not producing enough, and use it as a learning opportunity for other players...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Heck. He still does this all the time presently. Currently have single ship TFs around the Aleutians, the Marshalls, and Marcus.

The Devil really is in the details for this sort of behavior. I agree that using xAKLs in singletons or pairs to soak off carrier sorties is gamey as Hell. But I've got no problems with using PB,PC,DD,PG,AMc,AM or other 'military' versions of ships on picket duty.

The common cry is that the Allies don't get enough of these to convert for picket duty? Too bad. So sad. Use a Fletcher then.

The game engine still does a poor job of disregarding these singletons when putting together anti-ship packages. So you have a couple xAKLs that *still* get targeted with 15DBs or TBs from a carrier strike.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Musashi will be able to move tomorrow. She'll be escorted down to Soerabaja. Since the SYS damage is not major, the repairs should work without issue. We'll work to get her back into decent form and then try to bring her back...

Nagato will have to be used as a bomber bait. Very sad...

Two thoughts:

First one: I think you'll never see Mushashi again if you send her to Soerbaja. That port will be in range of B-29s soon if not already.

The Java Sea will be crawling with submarines slavering at the mouth to catch a TK/AO convoy en route. With Miri and Brunei in the bag for the Allies, these make excellent bases to stick an AS at and support local and regional submarine interdiction efforts. Very short range to targets of opportunity there. I think a lurking submarine would be more than happy to put some functional torpedoes into Mushashi's side while moving to or from Soerbaja, thus negating any benefit derived.

John: Your defenses in the DEI are being cut in half. The pivotal battles WON'T be fought over Sumatra or Java, but much closer to the home islands. Putting a superbattleship in a closed off pocket means that it probably won't be able to participate any further in any meaningful fashion and can be further damaged at your opponent's leisure. I would probably try to figure out a way for her to crawl back to the home islands if I wanted her to contribute for the rest of the war.

This is, of course, a warning for any other fleet elements that are 'cut off' or soon will be. The opportunity to move 'em out and get them back home is coming to an end. Soon you'll have to fight to get them through the enemy cordon.

Second thought: I love the idea of using Nagato as a CAP trap, just maybe not disbanded at port. How about moving her closer to the action and putting her in port as a 1-ship TF? That should preferentially attract carrier air strikes. Escorted DBs and TBs sucked into a CAP trap? Yummy.... UNescorted DBs or TBs? [shudders...][8D]

[Encircled]

UJO: "They'll be back up in 5 minutes, sir."
Captain: "Bull****. This thing'll be over with in two minutes!"

Still the best line in that film is

"But you remember one thing: if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong"

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I would gladly trade some system damage for a shot at un-escorted daytime flying B29s! It is a great trap.

How many total fighters did you have on duty over Singers?

Believe that there were just at 70. If he comes back tomorrow--doubtful--then it will be about 100. Lowpe: TOTALLY concur! Am moving the CVs in this direction and will add a whole passel of Sams to the mix the day after tomorrow. Would love for a bunch of B-29s to come over and meet 150+ top line fighters. VERY NICE!

You guys are living in a dream world.

Ships sink from max system damage just as quickly as the sink from max flotation or fire damage.
You incurre4d 50 sys damage from ONE raid.

You need to let that sink in before you claim this is a great exchange.

When I said it, I didn't have the damage report done to the ships, but still...it isn't too bad because of the following.

Those ships are basically out of the game anyhow. That they drew a heavy strike and inflicted damage on the bombers, which could be used to trash the economy instead is I think a victory. That the Allies need to stand down the B29s for a few days even better.


Hopefully, this a tactic that Japan can pursue more times. It takes about 300 regular plane losses to pay off for losing a battleship this way which would make for a very good trade.

If the Allies divert forces to destroy the ship, rather than close on the HI even better!

This is late game Japan, Hans. Where anytime you can trade your VP at less than a 2-1 ratio, well that then is a victory. Anytime you can divert and delay...that is a victory. It is much easier for Japan to recover BB VP as cap traps than at sea where they are torpedo magnets for all subs; outclassed and outgunned by Allied ships.

Ideally, I would liked to have seen John concentrate his fleet to protect the HI economy...months ago. Everything west of Samah is basically gone. If those ships helped delay attacks on the HI by a week...well then at this point I call that a victory.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Musashi will be able to move tomorrow. She'll be escorted down to Soerabaja. Since the SYS damage is not major, the repairs should work without issue. We'll work to get her back into decent form and then try to bring her back...

Nagato will have to be used as a bomber bait. Very sad...

Two thoughts:

First one: I think you'll never see Mushashi again if you send her to Soerbaja. That port will be in range of B-29s soon if not already.

The Java Sea will be crawling with submarines slavering at the mouth to catch a TK/AO convoy en route. With Miri and Brunei in the bag for the Allies, these make excellent bases to stick an AS at and support local and regional submarine interdiction efforts. Very short range to targets of opportunity there. I think a lurking submarine would be more than happy to put some functional torpedoes into Mushashi's side while moving to or from Soerbaja, thus negating any benefit derived.

John: Your defenses in the DEI are being cut in half. The pivotal battles WON'T be fought over Sumatra or Java, but much closer to the home islands. Putting a superbattleship in a closed off pocket means that it probably won't be able to participate any further in any meaningful fashion and can be further damaged at your opponent's leisure. I would probably try to figure out a way for her to crawl back to the home islands if I wanted her to contribute for the rest of the war.

This is, of course, a warning for any other fleet elements that are 'cut off' or soon will be. The opportunity to move 'em out and get them back home is coming to an end. Soon you'll have to fight to get them through the enemy cordon.

Second thought: I love the idea of using Nagato as a CAP trap, just maybe not at port. How about moving her closer to the action and putting her in port as a 1-ship TF? That should preferentially attract carrier air strikes. Escorted DBs and TBs sucked into a CAP trap? Yummy.... UNescorted DBs or TBs? [shudders...][8D]

+1. But I believe the Nagato is stuck in upgrade. I would not recommend using battleships alone, give them some E's for flak protection.

Also, I would recommend you search your fleets for AR, AD, AS, AG and start thinking about making hidden ship repair facilities (along with naval support). You can make very strong system damage repair facilities in very tiny bases that are unlikely to attract bombers.

The days of repairing ships in drydock are rapidly coming to a close...and have come to a close anywhere west of Tokyo.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

UJO: "They'll be back up in 5 minutes, sir."
Captain: "Bull****. This thing'll be over with in two minutes!"

Still the best line in that film is

"But you remember one thing: if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong"

[:D]

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
This is being corrected and once these two bad boys enter the production line we should be able to fill everyone out and cause some serious bellyache for the Allied bombing campaign. .

"bad boys" -

explain how Frank and Ki100 are better than P47,Spit,Corsair or P51D (only mnvr is better and b- Frank has 20mm the Allies "only" 50cal, but they do not need more: 50cal can kill everything the Japanese have (only the late Emily might cause probs), while 12,7 of IJ cant kill most Allied bombers easily and even has trouble vs. some fighters).

But lets hear - perhaps you mod boosts these planes too much compared to stock so cna be named bad boys [;)] Every 2nd player plays with different (mod)values, so this causes confusion too I noted already.

As the Japanese GO...these are 'bad boys!'

John is absolutely correct....the Ki100-I and the Frank B are the two best Army bomber killers that Japan is ever likely to see in a game. They are bad boys. It is just too bad Japan isn't also adding the Frank R.

If I could trade 3000 Ki100I and Franks to destroy 1000 Jugs prior to 1945, well then that would be a great Japanese victory. And it is doable.

The addition of these two fighters help Japan immensely...mainly because Japan under estimated how much fighter production they were going to need.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Heck. He still does this all the time presently. Currently have single ship TFs around the Aleutians, the Marshalls, and Marcus.

The Devil really is in the details for this sort of behavior. I agree that using xAKLs in singletons or pairs to soak off carrier sorties is gamey as Hell. But I've got no problems with using PB,PC,DD,PG,AMc,AM or other 'military' versions of ships on picket duty.

The common cry is that the Allies don't get enough of these to convert for picket duty? Too bad. So sad. Use a Fletcher then.

The game engine still does a poor job of disregarding these singletons when putting together anti-ship packages. So you have a couple xAKLs that *still* get targeted with 15DBs or TBs from a carrier strike.

CR uses YMS's for this task. They are misnamed as they are not yard craft, but instead are deep water capable ships with 3500 endurance.
I see no issue with using YMSs for picket duty.
xAKLs sure, but minesweepers no.
My two pennies for what its worth.


and sorry if "dream world" was over the top.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Heck. He still does this all the time presently. Currently have single ship TFs around the Aleutians, the Marshalls, and Marcus.

The Devil really is in the details for this sort of behavior. I agree that using xAKLs in singletons or pairs to soak off carrier sorties is gamey as Hell. But I've got no problems with using PB,PC,DD,PG,AMc,AM or other 'military' versions of ships on picket duty.

The common cry is that the Allies don't get enough of these to convert for picket duty? Too bad. So sad. Use a Fletcher then.

The game engine still does a poor job of disregarding these singletons when putting together anti-ship packages. So you have a couple xAKLs that *still* get targeted with 15DBs or TBs from a carrier strike.

CR uses YMS's for this task. They are misnamed as they are not yard craft, but instead are deep water capable ships with 3500 endurance.
I see no issue with using YMSs for picket duty.
xAKLs sure, but minesweepers no.
My two pennies for what its worth.

I agree. As YMSs also carry an ASW rating of 1 (IIRC), they also provide a useful submarine screen around harbors, further rationalizing their presence outside of Allied ports.

It's a lousy duty to draw-akin to the dreaded radar picket DDs and DEs at Okinawa-but is fair game as far as I'm concerned.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


and sorry if "dream world" was over the top.

Hans, it isn't over the top, for goodness sake.[:D]

And JFB's do live in a dream world anyhow.[:D]

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Yep. Turn about is fair play. It was talked about over and over. He doesn't see anything wrong with the tactic so fine. Simple as that. Will address the topic in my next match. Note that I am at using my ships in pairs and not just little single ships probing around looking to be sunk.

Heck. He still does this all the time presently. Currently have single ship TFs around the Aleutians, the Marshalls, and Marcus.

Is this really the case ? Than I can commend you as in IJ player for sure. Also that planes did not get upgrades in your mod - this helps Allies quite a bit (esp. from 43 on imo). If we consider that the "stock" values of 3-4 IJ modells are too low in speed even more so. [;)] We need to see however that the testing of planes the US AAF did, was what I assume under perfect conditions. The Japanese did not have these conditions anymore from 44 on. Only in the big bases in the HI and perhaps Singapore etc. (asfaik).

EDIT2: John can you post speed of Ki100 in your mod ? The orig stock value is lousy 360.

With 4E port strikes sadly it so some of the bombers almost everytime get through and score hits. Not so much with 2Es and depending on your CAP and AA units ofc. I learned even in July 42 they can strike at Shortlands (sank there an CVE+ good DD) I pulled my ships back to Rabaul and Manus, Kavieng....only if heavy damaged ships need to be saved to the nearer ports, but then try to send more CAP fighters and/or increase CAP%...I had mostly only barges, small mineships and a single AKE for reloading at the bases in perfect 4E range. He sank my ACMs tho so no minetending anymore

Edit, the single ships issue, if single DDs or at least DEs are used this is fair play, real war tactic (picket ships)

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
And JFB's do live in a dream world anyhow.[:D]

[:D]

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

John is absolutely correct....the Ki100-I and the Frank B are the two best Army bomber killers that Japan is ever likely to see in a game. They are bad boys. It is just too bad Japan isn't also adding the Frank R.

If I could trade 3000 Ki100I and Franks to destroy 1000 Jugs prior to 1945, well then that would be a great Japanese victory. And it is doable.

The addition of these two fighters help Japan immensely...mainly because Japan under estimated how much fighter production they were going to need.

Yeah I agree I was a bit in hurry of my former post, cause I had read the term "bad boy" so often from John, got tired of it somehow haha. Yes, for IJ these are bad boys you both are right. Even more so in 43 the Jack as CAP fighter - you need to check climb rates for CAP it is pretty important, if your plane is to slow and can not climb fast to engage bombers, there is no value for CAP right ? And Jack and Tojo are the 2 earlier planes which suit this role...George ... not so much, more escort. It has worse climb and SR3 (imho ofc and I am still newbie in PBM but noted already in 2 games big difference to AI)

As an anecdote, my 1st game was allied vs. AI, I can remember (only) 2 things that caused my more serious concern, it was early on Tojos and late war Kamis. But P47 cleaned the floor ofc, but Kamis sometimes got through i remember that

@ John, pls speed of Ki100(1) plus your Jack (any) and Tojo (IIc 4xHMG) pool/prod ?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Like Professor Lowpe stated, you need faster fighters with 20mm or 30mm cannons. The Tony is slightly faster, but unless its diving, it will not catch the B-29s too often.

You got behind in quality air production and you are paying the price, John.

Behind in quality fighters? Frank in months early. Sam in months early. Now Frank-B and Tony-100 SIX or so months early.

Biggest mistake was scale of production. This is being corrected and once these two bad boys enter the production line we should be able to fill everyone out and cause some serious bellyache for the Allied bombing campaign. It is this area scale and scope of what is needed, as said earlier, that my biggest learning curve has been. In so many ways I feel like a 1st time player exploring this end game side of AE.

I think Michael is correct here. You really should have the Frank R at this point; you will get the Frank B but in this mod I believe it is a direct upgrade from Frank A. That doesn't decrease its value any, and I am really looking forward to seeing how it performs.

I don't think you will be seeing the Frank R in this game, and it really is the only Army sweeper you were likely to get.

It is not the end of the world, but does put more pressure on some Navy fighters and removes a tool from your box.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


and sorry if "dream world" was over the top.

Hans, it isn't over the top, for goodness sake.[:D]

And JFB's do live in a dream world anyhow.[:D]

In MY 'dream world' the sun is ALWAYS RISING in a Red-and-White sunburst!

BANZAI!
[&o][&o][&o]

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

John is absolutely correct....the Ki100-I and the Frank B are the two best Army bomber killers that Japan is ever likely to see in a game. They are bad boys. It is just too bad Japan isn't also adding the Frank R.

If I could trade 3000 Ki100I and Franks to destroy 1000 Jugs prior to 1945, well then that would be a great Japanese victory. And it is doable.

The addition of these two fighters help Japan immensely...mainly because Japan under estimated how much fighter production they were going to need.

Yeah I agree I was a bit in hurry of my former post, cause I had read the term "bad boy" so often from John, got tired of it somehow haha. Yes, for IJ these are bad boys you both are right. Even more so in 43 the Jack as CAP fighter - you need to check climb rates for CAP it is pretty important, if your plane is to slow and can not climb fast to engage bombers, there is no value for CAP right ? And Jack and Tojo are the 2 earlier planes which suit this role...George ... not so much, more escort. It has worse climb and SR3 (imho ofc and I am still newbie in PBM but noted already in 2 games big difference to AI)

As an anecdote, my 1st game was allied vs. AI, I can remember (only) 2 things that caused my more serious concern, it was early on Tojos and late war Kamis. But P47 cleaned the floor ofc, but Kamis sometimes got through i remember that

@ John, pls speed of Ki100(1) plus your Jack (any) and Tojo (IIc 4xHMG) pool/prod ?

There are no Jacks in this game. The ZERO designer sticks to the ZERO airframe the whole war. This is how we explain the various upgrade paths and quicker development of follow-on A6 designs.

I LOVE the Jack and have often thought of creating a Mod where the ZERO development stops at the M2 and everything pours into bringing the so-so version of Jack and George. That would be an interesting 'what if.'

[John 3rd]

Dan is gone for the weekend.

I ran the July 4th turn and did not send it back to him. Let me Post a screenshot of a strike at the 1.0x10^6 with its INITIAL CAP up and before these numbers more then DOUBLED:

[John 3rd]

Here is the combat report of the CAP over his Fleet: