Naval Combat

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: mlees

When I moved naval units, I dragged them from the regular playing map (at z4 or whatever), and dropped them onto the desired sea zone on the Global map, which was always at z1.

For example, I picked up a cruiser from Liverpool, and dropped it into the Arabian sea.

I assume that the seperate map panels will retain their discrete zoom settings and geographical focus, correct? (As it did in CWIF.)

Yes.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
This discussion probably has to wait for pictures/screen shots which, in turn, will have to wait for displaying the naval units in the sea area sections/boxes, which in turn, ...

Are we pushing release out?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
This discussion probably has to wait for pictures/screen shots which, in turn, will have to wait for displaying the naval units in the sea area sections/boxes, which in turn, ...

Are we pushing release out?

I am not adding new stuff to the project plan here. To clarify, I decided a long time ago to enhance the naval movement and combat system and have those tasks down as part of the project plan/schedule. What this discussion is accomplishing is helping me design those changes.

Talk is relatively free (in terms of time and effort) and I like to explore a wide range of possibilities in the early stages. If the design is thought through thoroughly, [sorry, my English major humor creeps in from time to time], then coding and implementation is relatively easy. It is modification of existing code (e.g., redesign & recode) that devours large amounts of time and energy.

So, wild ideas are welcome at this point. But "Hey, how about ...?" after the code is written and functioning is met with a cold stare.

[Larry Smith]

Just as long as I can select a stack of air units to move to a sea zone, without having to move one at a time! 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Larry Smith

Just as long as I can select a stack of air units to move to a sea zone, without having to move one at a time! 

Selecting multiple units to move as a stack is possible virtually everywhere in CWIF & MWIF.

[trees]

One thing that would be very helpful for the Japanese somewhat, the US a bit more, and most especially the CW player would be a global overview mode focusing solely on Convoy points; i.e. a way to look at sea zones showing only CPs, maybe simply a large numeral in the zone or a pair of numerals CP/Tanker for the tanker option, and maybe also show the CPs in port. You would want to look at the map this way during the lending phase for example.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: trees

One thing that would be very helpful for the Japanese somewhat, the US a bit more, and most especially the CW player would be a global overview mode focusing solely on Convoy points; i.e. a way to look at sea zones showing only CPs, maybe simply a large numeral in the zone or a pair of numerals CP/Tanker for the tanker option, and maybe also show the CPs in port. You would want to look at the map this way during the lending phase for example.

This is already an optional view using the global map. It works quite well at identifying what convoys are where.

[Froonp]

I am not real keen on balloons.

Ok, no worries, it was just a suggestion, a try at sparkling ideas.

Currently there are 10 sea boxes shown and I would like to both keep their existing definitions (5 sections by 2 sides) while somehow exploiting the fact they are already sitting there taking up space. It would not be difficult to simply magnify those 10 boxes so the top unit in each box would be visible. Of course, that's the problem - only the top unit would be visible. But the separation into sections for each sea area on the map would be a good start.

There are often 2-4 units within a sea box, so if we can see say, 4 units in each box, it would already be a step in the right direction.

Now the Units Under Cursor panel could be used multiple times (cloned) with each clone showing a different sea area. Combined with filters for side and sections that would let the player see the individual units clearly in as many sea areas as he wants to clutter the screen with. To display a Units In Sea Area panel, the player would just right click and select that action from a menu. The difference between this and the current implementation, is that the Units In Sea Area panel would remain visible while the player goes about doing the same for other sea areas.

Also, as you will implement some form of Task Force, I suppose there will be a panel / dialog box / window / form created to assemble and manage the Task Force. Maybe that "Task Force Display" can be displayed as "always on the top" when the player so chooses, that way he can have all the necessary Task Forces displayed on the screen when he wants.

[Plainian]

Naive question. Why do players need to create TF's Steve? Surely thats what the PC engine will do? When you move more than one naval unit into a Sea box the system can automatically create and display a (temporary?)TF# to show this. It would show the no of different naval unit types in numbers. Bit like a stack symbol but with numerical info. When you mouse over this info is popped up in a naval display somewhere as Froonp says?
Apologies if this is a silly idea. Yes I do have WIF but 4th Ed and the only CWIF I tried was the Barbarossa scenario which I tried PBEM with. (got 3-4 turns) I never really looked at the naval game.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

Naive question. Why do players need to create TF's Steve? Surely thats what the PC engine will do? When you move more than one naval unit into a Sea box the system can automatically create and display a (temporary?)TF# to show this. It would show the no of different naval unit types in numbers. Bit like a stack symbol but with numerical info. When you mouse over this info is popped up in a naval display somewhere as Froonp says?
Apologies if this is a silly idea. Yes I do have WIF but 4th Ed and the only CWIF I tried was the Barbarossa scenario which I tried PBEM with. (got 3-4 turns) I never really looked at the naval game.

The original playtest of CWiF, as well as all my experience in playing WiF FE, learned me that having an entity known as a Task Force, was very convenient, and helped a lot managing ships.

If you can create a Task Force entity, and assign ships to it, and manage it, you can :
- Have it return to base as a single entity (rather than return to base each single ship of the task force one by one),
- Create a Task Force for a future need in advance, so that when the time comes, you're sure you don't miss a signle ship you needed.
- Repeatidely sail the same Task Force in the same sea area, for the same Task.

If you can't create a Task Force entity, you need to select all the necessary ships EVERY TIME you need to sail them to patrol. If it is for escort duties, that's ok, but if you wanted to sortie the same group of ground supporting BBs plus their covering CVLs that you had sailed out last turn, you need to select them each turn. This is not a hard task, but it is very annoying to be obliged to select those 5-7 ships turn after turn amongst 20-30 ships in the same port.

Having Task Force does not mean that you are stuck with its composition for ever, as you can, at will, drop ships and add ships (that's what I call "managing the Task Force").

[Zorachus99]

How about at least one unit shown in the sea box, and then a number in the shadow of the unit showing how many units are in the sea box.
 
Idea...

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

How about at least one unit shown in the sea box, and then a number in the shadow of the unit showing how many units are in the sea box.

Idea...

Depending on the Map Zoom and the Unit Zoom, we could also have 4 units displayed in 1 sea box section. The same as was already envisionned by Steven for Land & Aircraft units within hexes.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Yes

Edit: I forgot to include the original. This is in response to Zorachus99 about showing the # of units in each sea box (when there is more than 1) the same as for land units.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

How about at least one unit shown in the sea box, and then a number in the shadow of the unit showing how many units are in the sea box.

Idea...

Depending on the Map Zoom and the Unit Zoom, we could also have 4 units displayed in 1 sea box section. The same as was already envisionned by Steven for Land & Aircraft units within hexes.

Yes

[Plainian]

Actually this is what I meant as well in my original post. The TF/stack counter is not to ease unit movement of naval units but to help display what is in the sea box. Instead of displaying the top unit or 4 of them or whatever the game displays the TF/stack counter.

I've made up a dummy counter but unfortunately cannot post it as I don't have access to host it on a web site. Basically it would just show TF## in the middle (generated by game) and as many boxes around the edges as possible to display the #'s of each of the different types. I've got 3 boxes at the top and 3 at the bottom allowing 6 different types? I would think that this would be the maximum that a counter could handle.

In WIF there were only 4 naval types HS/LS/TRS/SUB. How many different categories are there in WIFFE which would need to be displayed?

If there was a toggle switch as well so that instead of the # of unit types, the total surface strengths or lowest movement allowance for each type was displayed.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Yes

Edit: I forgot to include the original. This is in response to Zorachus99 about showing the # of units in each sea box (when there is more than 1) the same as for land units.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian
Actually this is what I meant as well in my original post. The TF/stack counter is not to ease unit movement of naval units but to help display what is in the sea box. Instead of displaying the top unit or 4 of them or whatever the game displays the TF/stack counter.

I've made up a dummy counter but unfortunately cannot post it as I don't have access to host it on a web site. Basically it would just show TF## in the middle (generated by game) and as many boxes around the edges as possible to display the #'s of each of the different types. I've got 3 boxes at the top and 3 at the bottom allowing 6 different types? I would think that this would be the maximum that a counter could handle.

In WIF there were only 4 naval types HS/LS/TRS/SUB. How many different categories are there in WIFFE which would need to be displayed?

If there was a toggle switch as well so that instead of the # of unit types, the total surface strengths or lowest movement allowance for each type was displayed.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Yes

Edit: I forgot to include the original. This is in response to Zorachus99 about showing the # of units in each sea box (when there is more than 1) the same as for land units.

You are asking for a lot from a single counter image. It's probably hopeless to try to do it that way.

A naval stack could easily contain land and air units that are being transported. Then there are the carriers and their air units. Even setting all of those aside, you still are left with (potentially): BB, CA, CL, CX, TRS, AMPH, SUB, CONV - and I might have missed a couple.

Here are the counters, devoid of numbers. The bitmap images still needed to be centered, both vertically and horizontally. These were taken straight from the original WIF FE task force images.

I expect to add 6 numbers to these which will be similar to what you see on most naval units.

Top left - Total attack
Top center - Minimum movement points (in orange circle)
Top right - # of carrier air units
Bottom left - Total anti-aircraft
Bottom center - Minimum range (in yellow circle)
Bottom right - Total bombardment

What is different is that instead of defense in the top right, the # of carrier air units is shown.

There are dozens of more pieces of information the player will want to know, but that belongs in a separate display (of some sort). This lets you know how far it can move (crucial info), roughly how it will do in naval surface and air combats, and how much whomp it can apply in shore bombardment. The display will be dense since some of these numbers are likely to be double digits. If they exceed 99, I'll just use a **. This is doable, and I don't think anything else can be crammed in.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I forgot. There will be a task force name under the bitmap image.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I forgot. There will be a task force name under the bitmap image.

I was wondering about that exact point.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
You are asking for a lot from a single counter image. It's probably hopeless to try to do it that way.

A naval stack could easily contain land and air units that are being transported. Then there are the carriers and their air units. Even setting all of those aside, you still are left with (potentially): BB, CA, CL, CX, TRS, AMPH, SUB, CONV - and I might have missed a couple.

CVL, CV, ASW and Tankers ?

Here are the counters, devoid of numbers. The bitmap images still needed to be centered, both vertically and horizontally. These were taken straight from the original WIF FE task force images.

I expect to add 6 numbers to these which will be similar to what you see on most naval units.

Top left - Total attack
Top center - Minimum movement points (in orange circle)
Top right - # of carrier air units
Bottom left - Total anti-aircraft
Bottom center - Minimum range (in yellow circle)
Bottom right - Total bombardment

What is different is that instead of defense in the top right, the # of carrier air units is shown.

GREAT, I think this would a a real blast !!! I love that.

There are dozens of more pieces of information the player will want to know, but that belongs in a separate display (of some sort). This lets you know how far it can move (crucial info), roughly how it will do in naval surface and air combats, and how much whomp it can apply in shore bombardment. The display will be dense since some of these numbers are likely to be double digits. If they exceed 99, I'll just use a **. This is doable, and I don't think anything else can be crammed in.

You should be ready for 3 digits for total surface combat strength.
Anyway, we don't care if a dense display, it's wonderfull to be able to see those informations on a single die cut counter.

[Ballista]

TF and naming the TF is a great benefit for folks like me who tend to play the game off and on (with highly variable periods of time between sessions sometimes or controling all of one side's major powers (especiall CW)). I can set up my escort groups, "Invasion 1" group etc. Good stuff here.