Play Balance regarding Russia

[Incy]

Obviously you forgot to purge enough "white" officers...

btw, your average roll is 3, not 2.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Incy
Obviously you forgot to purge enough "white" officers...

btw, your average roll is 3, not 2.

As is the median. But the mode is 1, which is very distressing.

When I was playing every week against my "worthy opponent", we would routinely purge dice from the game that had aberrant behavior. I own over 150 dice, though only a half dozen 10 sided ones.

[amwild]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Incy
Obviously you forgot to purge enough "white" officers...

btw, your average roll is 3, not 2.

As is the median. But the mode is 1, which is very distressing.

When I was playing every week against my "worthy opponent", we would routinely purge dice from the game that had aberrant behavior. I own over 150 dice, though only a half dozen 10 sided ones.

Maybe some of us should be thankful that you're implementing such a secure dice system.

With a 10-sided die, I have developed techniques where I can roll any number I want better than one time in five, possibly as often as one in three - provided my friends don't make me roll the die from a cup or in a handful of other dice. It's possible because these dice have an axis around which they can rotate, and their shape means that a spinning die will almost always land on the upper half. Holding it at the right angle and giving it just the right spin means that you can get it to come up with your desired number quite often. My friends trust the dice program I wrote in my programmable calculator even less - they know that if I want, I can make that even more bent than an otherwise straight die, so they won't ever allow me to use it for rolling dice.

Steve, maybe you could add a feature to the dice rolling application so that players can request a statistical breakdown of a large number of rolls, so that they can see just how straight (or bent) this application is.

Since psudeo-random number generation programs are not truly random, even with clock-based seeds, I have seen some random number generators that use the user's random mouse input as a factor. It's kind of a pity that Intel's thermal-noise-based random number generation chipset for PCs never took off - I think the NSA killed it...

[Gendarme]

Let us roll our own dice and enter the results into the computer during the game. When it's time to determine weather, I roll a d10 and type in the result, etc. Pleeeease...

At least I would still have the satisfaction of smashing errant dice with my 15th Century repro flanged gothic mace while playing my favorite wargame on computer. Instead of smashing said computer with said medieval implement of pain when the rolls go bad.

And to Capitan, that unlucky streak you had is worse than any I've ever seen in a game. You've got guts to keep on marching. I salute you.

Anthony DeChristopher

[jesperpehrson]

Thanks for the kind words.

Apart from the weather and the attackrolls it is a pretty standard game so things are still interesting gamewise (Rome and Tokyo are under some pressure). Me and the Wallies have extremly lucky against the Luftwaffe, last turn alone we downed 15-20 FTR and TACs. All things are not bleak but it has been testing my patience .-)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: amwild

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Incy
Obviously you forgot to purge enough "white" officers...

btw, your average roll is 3, not 2.

As is the median. But the mode is 1, which is very distressing.

When I was playing every week against my "worthy opponent", we would routinely purge dice from the game that had aberrant behavior. I own over 150 dice, though only a half dozen 10 sided ones.

Maybe some of us should be thankful that you're implementing such a secure dice system.

With a 10-sided die, I have developed techniques where I can roll any number I want better than one time in five, possibly as often as one in three - provided my friends don't make me roll the die from a cup or in a handful of other dice. It's possible because these dice have an axis around which they can rotate, and their shape means that a spinning die will almost always land on the upper half. Holding it at the right angle and giving it just the right spin means that you can get it to come up with your desired number quite often. My friends trust the dice program I wrote in my programmable calculator even less - they know that if I want, I can make that even more bent than an otherwise straight die, so they won't ever allow me to use it for rolling dice.

Steve, maybe you could add a feature to the dice rolling application so that players can request a statistical breakdown of a large number of rolls, so that they can see just how straight (or bent) this application is.

Since psudeo-random number generation programs are not truly random, even with clock-based seeds, I have seen some random number generators that use the user's random mouse input as a factor. It's kind of a pity that Intel's thermal-noise-based random number generation chipset for PCs never took off - I think the NSA killed it...

I'll run a lot of tests on the random number generation routine before the game releases - that has been on my task list for over a year now (there is no hurry to test it).

The game record log will record all random numbers used during a game and the players can extract the die rolls from that file if they want to analyze them for bias. Making an analysis of die rolls a program feature seems a bit over the top.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Gendarme
Let us roll our own dice and enter the results into the computer during the game. When it's time to determine weather, I roll a d10 and type in the result, etc. Pleeeease...

At least I would still have the satisfaction of smashing errant dice with my 15th Century repro flanged gothic mace while playing my favorite wargame on computer. Instead of smashing said computer with said medieval implement of pain when the rolls go bad.

And to Capitan, that unlucky streak you had is worse than any I've ever seen in a game. You've got guts to keep on marching. I salute you.

Anthony DeChristopher

I guess my real reason for not letting players roll their own dice is that it is simply an open invitation to cheat. Nor do I not know of any other computer game that gives the players the ability to set die rolls. It certainly isn't a common feature.

[trees]

If asked in 1935 if re-taking Brest-Litovsk were the outcome of a war, the Russians would probably consider that a victory....

[iamspamus]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Gendarme
Let us roll our own dice and enter the results into the computer during the game. When it's time to determine weather, I roll a d10 and type in the result, etc. Pleeeease...

At least I would still have the satisfaction of smashing errant dice with my 15th Century repro flanged gothic mace while playing my favorite wargame on computer. Instead of smashing said computer with said medieval implement of pain when the rolls go bad.

And to Capitan, that unlucky streak you had is worse than any I've ever seen in a game. You've got guts to keep on marching. I salute you.

Anthony DeChristopher

I guess my real reason for not letting players roll their own dice is that it is simply an open invitation to cheat. Nor do I not know of any other computer game that gives the players the ability to set die rolls. It certainly isn't a common feature.

Amen. Computer dice, not me rolling myown and then needing to enter them into the game. Forget cheating, if I rolled several and needed to enter them..."Was that a 4, then 7, then 3 or a 7, then 4, then 3...Oh damn"
Jason

[Gendarme]

True, no other games have a manual dice-rolling feature. Seems like a silly idea in retrospect. Will not agitate further on this point.

Anthony DeChristopher

[Ballista]

The manual die roll feature would be nice (like the ability to move units "on the fly" kind of like CWIF let you do), but like that feature is definitely not a requirement. There's a whole lot of more important fish to fry than those items, I'm sure [:D]

BTW the dice Gods definitely fail me a lot of the time too......

[composer99]

If die rolls are a problem, I can see three obvious solutions:

(1) Suck it up and keep rolling away. [:'(]

(2) Attempt to appease the dice/chance gods through whatever ritual you deem appropriate - sacrificing goats, sacrificing virgins, sacrificing first-born children (your own is best, although I suppose someone else's might do the job too), sacrificing important personal possessions (but maybe not the car), &c. [:D] 

(3) Make an example of the offending die or dice, preferably by dousing it (them) with gasoline (best done out on the driveway!) and lighting it on fire. Make sure the other dice are in "visual range" so they can witness the burning. Pour encouragez les autres, yes?

Incidentally, two of my gaming friends describe me as the "unluckiest dice roller they know", but I have so far not attempted either of (2) or (3) to solve my problems (although maybe I should? [;)]).

[Incy]

well, I can only express my disappointment in that. With no cheat feature (i.e. moving units) no ability to roll dice, and a very strict turn order, there will inevitable be a lot of occurences of people forgetting to do som unrelated move in the correct order, etc.
Some people are of course perfectly happy to have som honest, silly mistake ruin a 2-month long game, but personally I prefer to have the ability to grant a mulligan and edit the mistake away.
I do normally trust my opponents, and don't see what's wrong with this anyways:
1) ask for mulligan
2) go back to previous save
3) switch to cheat/set dice mode (other player is alerted)
4) reimplement equal to original, except fixing some mistake a mulligan was granted for
5) when back to previous game situation (but with fix in place), switch off cheat/set dice mode (other player is alerted)

incidentally, a "set dice" mode also allows players to examine "what if scenarios", IHMO an excellent feature.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Incy
well, I can only express my disappointment in that. With no cheat feature (i.e. moving units) no ability to roll dice, and a very strict turn order, there will inevitable be a lot of occurences of people forgetting to do som unrelated move in the correct order, etc.
Some people are of course perfectly happy to have som honest, silly mistake ruin a 2-month long game, but personally I prefer to have the ability to grant a mulligan and edit the mistake away.
I do normally trust my opponents, and don't see what's wrong with this anyways:
1) ask for mulligan
2) go back to previous save
3) switch to cheat/set dice mode (other player is alerted)
4) reimplement equal to original, except fixing some mistake a mulligan was granted for
5) when back to previous game situation (but with fix in place), switch off cheat/set dice mode (other player is alerted)

incidentally, a "set dice" mode also allows players to examine "what if scenarios", IHMO an excellent feature.

I understand and am sympathetic to your motivations here and did not mean to speak evil of you personally, but given the larger audience of players (I hope) cheating is an issue I feel I should be concerned about.

You item #2 will be available in MWIF, and combined with automatic saves at the end of each phase, it shouldn't be too difficult to return the game to the position "just before" the omitted/mistaken move.

Many 'moves' have numerous repercussions, so permitting even simple deviations in the sequence of play (which is how I view moving a unit outside of the RAW rules) can really play havoc with the program's logic. It would be even more distressing to players if they 'fix' a little mistake and then discover several turns later that it had a disasterous effect on the game state (messed up the game).

[Incy]

Point is that once I roll that first naval combat in pacific it's to late to send out that forgotten escort in the atlantic, resupply malta with that CP, or send the dutch TRS to pick up a south african FTR (Because there's no realistic way for me to recreate the outcome of a naval battle). So I can't really have a fair mulligan, because the dice have allready been thrown and it's not fair to go back and throw them again (you took Gibraltar? Wait a minute, I think I forgot to rebase this russian LND4 to Vlad..).
So I end up spending an extra minute or 15 CONSTANTLY, so that I don't miss to much stuff.
But my opponent would rather have me play faster, and then grant me a mulligan whenever I miss something obvious, such as the dutch TRS picking up a FTR in some outlaying theathre. If I could set the dice how I want *in cheat mode*, I could go to an autosave, reimplement stuff that allready happened (providing the same dicerolls), and then start from where the mistake was dicovered *with cheat mode off*.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Incy

Point is that once I roll that first naval combat in pacific it's to late to send out that forgotten escort in the atlantic, resupply malta with that CP, or send the dutch TRS to pick up a south african FTR (Because there's no realistic way for me to recreate the outcome of a naval battle). So I can't really have a fair mulligan, because the dice have allready been thrown and it's not fair to go back and throw them again (you took Gibraltar? Wait a minute, I think I forgot to rebase this russian LND4 to Vlad..).
So I end up spending an extra minute or 15 CONSTANTLY, so that I don't miss to much stuff.
But my opponent would rather have me play faster, and then grant me a mulligan whenever I miss something obvious, such as the dutch TRS picking up a FTR in some outlaying theathre. If I could set the dice how I want *in cheat mode*, I could go to an autosave, reimplement stuff that allready happened (providing the same dicerolls), and then start from where the mistake was dicovered *with cheat mode off*.

While I concur with what you say, and agree too, I also think that in such a computer game, we will all need to be more careful, as the game wwon't forgive things you forget.
But...

First, this true for all human players, your opponent will also forget things maybe, so this will hopefully, in the course of the 36 turns and 125 impulses, even out ?

And second, the game has a feature that the board game does not have : You can ue a key on the keyboard to cycle through all units that can perform something in the phase you are in.
So, when you are in the naval transport phase, the game will circle you through each unit that can be used to naval transport units, in the air rebase, the game will circle you through all the units that can be rebased, and trust me (for having used this during the CWiF playtest), this is very efficient, and in a few seconds, you have made a round through all possible units.
Then it is just a matter of deciding what you want your units to do, and also a matter of not forgetting to cycle through all available units in a phase, but hey, you don't hope the game to play for you ?[:D]

So, while this mulligan-thing risk being a gripe with some players, I think that the actual play will show that it is not needed, and only restoring a previously saved game will be needed.

[lavisj]

In the case of the Mulligan and the auto save redoing the rolls for the combat, I was under the impressions that random numbers generated by computers were not random but the product of a complex mathematical function whose result is unpredictable but certain.
Which would mean that if no other roll is being made, you could add the move, and the rolls for the combat should be the same. Am I wrong on that?

[amwild]

ORIGINAL: lavisj

In the case of the Mulligan and the auto save redoing the rolls for the combat, I was under the impressions that random numbers generated by computers were not random but the product of a complex mathematical function whose result is unpredictable but certain.
Which would mean that if no other roll is being made, you could add the move, and the rolls for the combat should be the same. Am I wrong on that?

Given the same seed value, the sequence of results from a psudeorandom number generator is always the same. However, most applications that use psudeorandom numbers use some sort of variable seed - often based on the system clock - so that the sequence of psudeorandom numbers cannot easily be predicted. Also, since psudeorandom number generators use their previous result as the seed for the next result, sequences of numbers do not readily repeat themselves.

So, under normal circumstances, going back and repeating a move will not result in the same die roll and the same result. In some games, you can save the game, make a move, and if you don't like the result, you can load the game and make the move again (and again...) until you achieve a result you like.

However, I seem to recall that Steve is adding code so that if you try this, you will get the same result every time - the die roll is tied to the event it is rolled for - so if you went back, you would have to try something else to get a different result.

[christo]

While cycling through the units via a keystroke may help, with several hundred counters on the board each it is easy to forget things... perhaps this will make us all better players. On the other hand the ability of the computer to save time on setups and production/ oil use may negate the extra time needed to ensure no stuff ups.

I agree though about the saved games though for major stuff ups.

Christo

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Incy

Point is that once I roll that first naval combat in pacific it's to late to send out that forgotten escort in the atlantic, resupply malta with that CP, or send the dutch TRS to pick up a south african FTR (Because there's no realistic way for me to recreate the outcome of a naval battle). So I can't really have a fair mulligan, because the dice have allready been thrown and it's not fair to go back and throw them again (you took Gibraltar? Wait a minute, I think I forgot to rebase this russian LND4 to Vlad..).
So I end up spending an extra minute or 15 CONSTANTLY, so that I don't miss to much stuff.
But my opponent would rather have me play faster, and then grant me a mulligan whenever I miss something obvious, such as the dutch TRS picking up a FTR in some outlaying theathre. If I could set the dice how I want *in cheat mode*, I could go to an autosave, reimplement stuff that allready happened (providing the same dicerolls), and then start from where the mistake was dicovered *with cheat mode off*.

While I concur with what you say, and agree too, I also think that in such a computer game, we will all need to be more careful, as the game wwon't forgive things you forget.
But...

First, this true for all human players, your opponent will also forget things maybe, so this will hopefully, in the course of the 36 turns and 125 impulses, even out ?

And second, the game has a feature that the board game does not have : You can ue a key on the keyboard to cycle through all units that can perform something in the phase you are in.
So, when you are in the naval transport phase, the game will circle you through each unit that can be used to naval transport units, in the air rebase, the game will circle you through all the units that can be rebased, and trust me (for having used this during the CWiF playtest), this is very efficient, and in a few seconds, you have made a round through all possible units.
Then it is just a matter of deciding what you want your units to do, and also a matter of not forgetting to cycle through all available units in a phase, but hey, you don't hope the game to play for you ?[:D]

So, while this mulligan-thing risk being a gripe with some players, I think that the actual play will show that it is not needed, and only restoring a previously saved game will be needed.

[Froonp]

While cycling through the units via a keystroke may help, with several hundred counters on the board each it is easy to forget things... perhaps this will make us all better players. On the other hand the ability of the computer to save time on setups and production/ oil use may negate the extra time needed to ensure no stuff ups.

It was my experience during playtest that each time I forgot things is when I hastely pressed the "next step" button (enter key) without cycling all the units. Moreover, I unactivated the validation for the next step, so that the game was not asking me if I as sure to end this step. What I mean is that it was all my fault, because I did not use the game's features that are here to help me not forgetting things. I wanted to play fast.
Cycling all the units is really fast, you can even cycle 2 or 3 times, quickly, just to get a picture of where there are units to move.