WAR IN THE MEDITERRANEAN: Speedy vs Pauk

[Przemcio231]

Cheez less discution more AAR Please[:D]

[kokubokan25]

Good luck with this AAR!
 
Yes, this mod need "home rules". Several "hard coded" features beyond my "modding" capacities...[8|]

[pauk]

guys, thanks for the feedback but i really think that we all shoud give credits to Fremen before we start critise (sp?) it!

As Fremen stated, guite a lot things are beyond his capabilities because they are hardcoded... there is nothing he can do it, really... the mod looks beatiful and i'm sure it will be fun but i'm also sure that several house rules will be needed...

as i've mentioned, i consider this game as beta testing (well, only in case that Axis losing the war. Otherwise, game is so balanced and only ME as geniue strategist is responsible for reaching Alexandria by Christmas 42[;)][:D])...

I will try to answer to your questions...

Andy, Malta is, IIRC lvl 8 AF...

the majority of the DAK forces (especially Italian) has lots of disabled squad... supply is not perfect...Axis units doesn't have any preparation points for any base (cant say the same for Brits - didn't took a look at Brits)

I've also have a lots of question for Fremen (what to do with industry??? should i change something or Axis already recives historical reinforcements and i shouldn't do any change?)

Am i going to recive LCUs as reinforcements or i have to play with what i've got?

Anyways, here is a first turn. Must say that i'm suprised with numbers of enemy fighers on CAP and LR CAP (didn't expect that Englander will be so agressive) but i'm also suprised with Italian fighters solid performance....


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/01/42

As i said Malta is No.1 on my priority list....

Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
CR-25 x 6
MC-200 x 14
MC-202 x 25
Re-2001 x 24
BR 20 M x 40
Ju-88A-4 x 20
Bf-109F-4 R2 Recon x 5

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIc x 34
Spitfire Vc x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
MC-202: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Re-2001: 5 destroyed, 4 damaged
BR 20 M: 1 destroyed, 18 damaged
Ju-88A-4: 13 damaged
Bf-109F-4 R2 Recon: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIc: 16 destroyed, 2 damaged[X(]
Spitfire Vc: 3 destroyed, 7 damaged
Beaufighter VIF: 1 destroyed
Baltimore II: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
157 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 55

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 6000 feet
6 x BR 20 M bombing at 6000 feet
10 x BR 20 M bombing at 6000 feet
8 x BR 20 M bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x BR 20 M bombing at 6000 feet
3 x BR 20 M bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 6000 feet
4 x BR 20 M bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x BR 20 M bombing at 6000 feet
2 x BR 20 M bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
Bf-109F-4 Trop x 15
Ju-88A-4 x 44
Hs-126 B-2 x 4

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIc x 6
Spitfire Vc x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Bf-109F-4 Trop: 1 destroyed
Ju-88A-4: 6 damaged
Hs-126 B-2: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIc: 8 destroyed
Spitfire Vc: 3 destroyed
Beaufighter VIF: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
123 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 65

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 11000 feet
13 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 11000 feet
12 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 11000 feet
6 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 11000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 11000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 11000 feet
2 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 11000 feet
2 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 11000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
CR-42 x 21
SM 84 x 11
SM 79 x 32

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
CR-42: 6 destroyed
SM 84: 7 damaged
SM 79 : 10 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vc: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
49 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 7
Runway hits 39

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
7 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
6 x SM 84 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 84 bombing at 6000 feet
2 x SM 84 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
MC-200 x 24
MC-202 x 27
Z-1007 Bis x 11

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
MC-200: 2 damaged
Z-1007 Bis: 7 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vc: 8 destroyed
Hurricane IIc: 1 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Runway hits 10

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Z-1007 Bis bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Z-1007 Bis bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 84 x 21

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 84: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 16

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x SM 84 bombing at 15000 feet
6 x SM 84 bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
Ca-311 x 3
BR 20 M x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ca-311: 1 damaged
BR 20 M: 2 damaged

Runway hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet
3 x BR 20 M bombing at 15000 feet


This Englander have the balls - he dares to attack my main Naval base (from Malta)! Well, we are inviting him to do it again - that is all i can say![:-]

Day Air attack on Tarento , at 39,110


Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 3
Wellington III x 3


Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Blenheim IV bombing at 8000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 8000 feet

Annoying but CL will make it to the safe port!

Day Air attack on TF, near Reggio Calabria at 37,116


Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIc x 22
Beaufighter X x 14


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Duca Daosta, Bomb hits 5, heavy damage
DD Corazziere

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Beaufighter X launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x Beaufighter X launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Beaufighter X launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Beaufighter X launching torpedoes at 200 feet


NORTH AFRICA

Plan was simple - i have two IT inf divisions and i wanted to defeat two enemy units at Barce before Rommel arrives. You can imagine my suprise when i found that these two units are armoured ones[X(]

Day Air attack on 1st Armoured Tank Division, at 45,127

Japanese aircraft
Bf-109F-4 Trop x 15
Ju-87 D (Ger) x 10
Z-1007 Bis x 6

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc x 11
Kittyhawk I x 24
Tomahawk IIb x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
Bf-109F-4 Trop: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
Ju-87 D (Ger): 5 destroyed
Z-1007 Bis: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vc: 3 damaged
Kittyhawk I: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
Tomahawk IIb: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged


Allied ground losses:
31 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Z-1007 Bis bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ju-87 D (Ger) bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Z-1007 Bis bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ju-87 D (Ger) bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st Armoured Tank Division, at 45,127

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 T x 8
Z-1007 Bis x 7

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc x 5
Kittyhawk I x 9
Tomahawk IIb x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 79 T: 5 destroyed
Z-1007 Bis: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vc: 1 damaged
Kittyhawk I: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
49 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Vehicles lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Z-1007 Bis bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 79 T bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 7th Armoured Tank Division, at 45,127

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 x 19
MC-200 x 28
Ju-88A-4 x 8

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc x 11
Kittyhawk I x 24
Tomahawk IIb x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 79 : 4 destroyed, 11 damaged
MC-200: 8 destroyed, 6 damaged
Ju-88A-4: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vc: 3 damaged
Kittyhawk I: 1 destroyed, 9 damaged
Tomahawk IIb: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
58 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
7 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
2 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 6000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 7th Armoured Tank Division, at 45,127

Japanese aircraft
Bf-109F-4 Trop x 27
Ju-87 D (Ger) x 23
Z-1007 Bis x 4

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc x 5
Kittyhawk I x 9
Tomahawk IIb x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
Bf-109F-4 Trop: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ju-87 D (Ger): 10 damaged
Z-1007 Bis: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vc: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Kittyhawk I: 16 destroyed
Tomahawk IIb: 4 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
127 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 7

Aircraft Attacking:
23 x Ju-87 D (Ger) bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Z-1007 Bis bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 7th Armoured Tank Division, at 45,127

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 T x 11
Z-1007 Bis x 3

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc x 4
Kittyhawk I x 4
Tomahawk IIb x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 79 T: 7 damaged
Z-1007 Bis: 3 damaged



Allied ground losses:
14 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x SM 79 T bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Z-1007 Bis bombing at 6000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Barce

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 18340 troops, 244 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 230

Defending force 10634 troops, 209 guns, 432 vehicles, Assault Value = 400

Japanese max assault: 252 - adjusted assault: 113

Allied max defense: 248 - adjusted defense: 129

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
431 casualties reported
Guns lost 23

Allied ground losses:
98 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
Vehicles lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Barce

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 10458 troops, 200 guns, 431 vehicles, Assault Value = 395

Defending force 17816 troops, 216 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 211



Lets see if Englander will fight for 'holy' ground around Toburk or he adopt infamous Sir Robin!

[fabertong]

Have great fun with this guys.............I'll be watching with interest..........

[Cap Mandrake]

Wow..this is cool.

How about a screenshot or two of Lybia and Malta?

[Cap Mandrake]

BTW...whats up with this?

Day Air attack on TF, near Reggio Calabria at 37,116
Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIc x 22
Beaufighter X x 14


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Duca Daosta, Bomb hits 5, heavy damage
DD Corazziere

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Beaufighter X launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x Beaufighter X launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Beaufighter X launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x Beaufighter X launching torpedoes at 200 feet

The Beaufighters make torpedo runs but the Eyetey ship gets hit by bombs? Were the Hurricanes in an antishpping role?

[rtrapasso]

Maybe this is the reverse of the "torpedoes from 20000 feet" bug (where planes apparently drop torpedoes from that height...) [&:] [:'(]

[kokubokan25]

I've also have a lots of question for Fremen (what to do with industry???

The production and industry it's in a early development. Would be testing.
You can resist with the axis prod until last months of 42 without problems, if you do not increase the industry of course.

should i change something or Axis already recives historical reinforcements and i shouldn't do any change?)
Am i going to recive LCUs as reinforcements or i have to play with what i've got?

You will receive more more and many more LCU and reinforcements (historical) in the following months.
But the allies get many more....

[qgaliana]

Nice, very nice.
 
No criticisms of the mod intended Pauk. I just hope the devs will notice how some of the hard coded stuff will throw bumps in front of a heroic and very welcome modding effort. [&o]
 
 
 

[AmiralLaurent]

The problems are not with the mod, there are in the engine.

I'm quite sure that the number of AC in the scenario are quite close to the historical level... but the air losses in one day were probably equal to the historical air losses in the whiole month of January 1942.... That is how WITP (and so WITM) works

[JeffroK]

Fremen, just a tip for a bit of tidying up.
 
Instead of having the 7th Armoured Tank Division, you set the second field to 0 (zero) and it will show up as 7th Armoured Division (or whatever you put in the first field) .
 
Also, the Italian aircraft should have "bis" instead of "Bis"
 
From the Dept of petty complaints[8D]

[Speedysteve]

Hi guys,

Will try to run the turn over next few days.

Problem I have is that a lot of business travel has coincided with hectic social life.

I must say overall an interestign first day.

I am thinking that for the futrue some HR's are needed (as Fremen says).

The nature of the bloody WiTP auir model IMO makes simulating the air war in the Med very very hard to do.

I can tell you already I will probably evacuate all air units rom Malta after this day and leave the men to rot.

In short after 1 day Malta is finished since I can't sustain these kind of losses.

Hurri's are no good in the air even against the 'poor' Italian planes. I am very surprised at the performance of some of the Italian planes. Stuff like Folgore's/Veltros/Archers should do pretty well but stuff like 2001, Cr25, re2001 shouldn't be that hot in the air.

Since I can't upgrade them to Spits until May 1942 there are few decent air units I have.

Fremen - just a thought if you made every British air unit Aussie for example could they upgrade before May 1942?

Overall, this is fun guys[8D]

[Hipper]

Speedy You might try try evacuating all hurricanes from malta & concentrating all spits there, you might see some improvments on the loss ratio then,

Cheers

Hipper

[String]

Perhaps the mod can do with nikmod a2a or even the chs experimental a2a model?

[kokubokan25]

Fremen - just a thought if you made every British air unit Aussie for example could they upgrade before May 1942?

Yes, that's would be possible. However, this "solution" will be useless to Malta airgroups because their HQ isn't so near to allow. The best solution is, first, set the airgroups to "No receive" replacements, and after try to evacuate.
If the axis player want leave Malta useless it's impossible to Allied player stop it. Just like real war.

And Yes, the A2A combat it's a problem. Many slaughteries.
My first solution was reduced 50% the damage of the planes armament like MG and Cannons.
But seems not to be enough.

[Speedysteve]

Hi Hipper,
 
I don't have enough Spits to do anything with without upgrading some Hurri squadrons. I probably have maybe 5-6 Spit squadrons in total.
 
I can't sustain a mass air war with whatever planes. As such the only option is to abandon Malta. It can be smacked with 100's of planes every day.

[pauk]

ok, here is a screenshot on request... air to air losses are almost 1:1....both Speedy and I agree that Italian crappy fighers performed suprisingly good.

String, experimental CHS A2A combat might be a good idea....

[AmiralLaurent]

I still haven't downloaded the mod (just going home to sleep, wash and change clothes this week... very busy) but with the screenshots it seems to me some important places are lacking, for example Bardia (used as port and airfield by both sides), Pantelleria Island, Lampedusa Island.

I would also include some dots at max AF size 0 to enable construction of defensive positions where they were really done (for example: Bir Hakeim and Knight's Bridge S of Gazala, Halfaya Pass between Tobruk and Sidi Barrani). That will allow both sides to prepare troops and build forts, and also to build small forward AF (tens were build during the war).

As for the air model, the main problem is see are:
_ too many AC flying each day, and that is hardcoded, no mod can change this.
_ in air battle every unit will engage every other unit and that is not realistic in big battles, and that is hardcoded, no mod can change this.
_ too easy to have replacement aircraft and crews on frontline, and that is hardcoded, no mod can change this.

Right now WITP is realistic when one unit fights another... Mods are realistic when 100 AC fight another 100 (the usual battle in WITP)... none is realistic when you have a CAP of 400 fighters...

[kokubokan25]

To Amiral: It's worth add Lampedusa island? In affirmative case, what kind of forces you put there?
Same to Pantellaria. I think is so tiny to be included.
 
Acording to more bases in North Africa, my intention was evade a excesive number of bases in so small space.
Leave to player decide if it's worth upgrade the base from level 0 it's a good idea. Thinking about...[:D]

[Vetamur]

Just my 2 cents..but dont the Italian fighters need to be redone? Well..obviously more testing is needed..But the Hurricane II should do better than THAT against them, shouldnt it?  Im not quite the expert many others here are..and I will readily admit ignorance of some facets of the European theater (and Med)..but honestly, the Hurricane should be able to AT LEAST hold its own against most of those Italian fighters..