Supply Paths

[amwild]

Is there going to be a setting that will allow a graphic representation of the supply paths to be toggled on and off? For all units and/or a single unit?

Will it be possible (or even neccesary or desirable) for a player to manually change a supply path? It appears to me that there could be many viable supply paths, and the shortest may not necessarily be the best. By defining a less vulnerable supply path, it may not be necessary to recalculate the entire path every time a unit moves, unless that path is cut or over-extended.

I hope I am not asking stupid questions here...

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: amwild
Is there going to be a setting that will allow a graphic representation of the supply paths to be toggled on and off? For all units and/or a single unit?

Will it be possible (or even neccesary or desirable) for a player to manually change a supply path? It appears to me that there could be many viable supply paths, and the shortest may not necessarily be the best. By defining a less vulnerable supply path, it may not be necessary to recalculate the entire path every time a unit moves, unless that path is cut or over-extended.

I hope I am not asking stupid questions here...

There is already code to list the hexes that a supply path traverses. Rendering that into something visible wouldn't be hard, though my interest in additional features is astonishingly low.[X(]

A unit is either in supply or not, so specifying a supply path would have no relevance to game play. As for its affect on performance (speed) I don't believe that will be a problem. It is only when the AIO is calculating vulnerabilities/cutting supply paths and exploring thousands of possibilities that the speed issue should come into play. I expect to have the AIO doing some/most of those calculations while the human player is making decisions (i.e., runnig in the background).

[composer99]

Patrice, vis-à-vis your supply diagram, as it relates to the overseas supply paths:

Is a port a secondary supply source? I do not think so (although I do not have the rules in front of me). Ergo, a unit tracing a basic supply path through a port cannot then trace a railway supply path to a secondary source.

You may need to modify the diagram to to reflect that.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Patrice, vis-à-vis your supply diagram, as it relates to the overseas supply paths:

Is a port a secondary supply source? I do not think so (although I do not have the rules in front of me). Ergo, a unit tracing a basic supply path through a port cannot then trace a railway supply path to a secondary source.

You may need to modify the diagram to to reflect that.

No, ports are not a secondary supply source.

A secondary supply source for a unit is:
• an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1); or
• the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
• the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.

Patrice may be trying to show that:

Overseas supply paths

Any part of a basic or railway supply path can be traced overseas. You may only trace supply overseas once for each unit attempting to trace supply, regardless of how many secondary supply sources are used between the tracing unit and the primary supply source.

The sea portion of a supply path does not count against the maximum number of hexes permitted in the path. The port hex you trace the overseas supply path into does count against your 4 hex limit. However, it always counts as only 1 hex, regardless of what map it is on or what terrain it contains.

To trace a basic supply path overseas, the unit must be in a coastal hex or trace the path via a port. To trace a railway path overseas, the secondary source must be in a coastal hex or trace the path via a port.

SiF option 11 (limited overseas supply): You can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH.

From the coastal hex or port, you trace the supply path via any number of consecutive sea areas to a friendly controlled port which is a supply source itself or from which you can continue the supply path overland to a supply source.

We will have to see what Patrice says.

[composer99]

Ah, excellent. Thanks for the rules reference.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Patrice, vis-à-vis your supply diagram, as it relates to the overseas supply paths:

Is a port a secondary supply source? I do not think so (although I do not have the rules in front of me). Ergo, a unit tracing a basic supply path through a port cannot then trace a railway supply path to a secondary source.

You may need to modify the diagram to to reflect that.

Sure, this was not the intend to show a port as a secondary supply source, which it isn't (unless it also is a capital city, which is not the general case).

I'll try at modifying the graphic.

[Froonp]

You may need to modify the diagram to to reflect that.

Would this be better ?

Edit : Uploaded another picture.

[amwild]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

You may need to modify the diagram to to reflect that.

Would this be better ?

Edit : Uploaded another picture.

Are these arrows pointing the wrong way? [&:]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

You may need to modify the diagram to to reflect that.

Would this be better ?

Edit : Uploaded another picture.

Ah, you changed the picture. The last time I looked at this I found several problem areas. But now it looks fine in all particulars. And yes, the arrows are going in the correct direction - since supply is traced from the unit to the supply source.

[Jimm]

Now prominently on my war room wall for this weekend's session of DOD3/Wif.

Thanks chaps, remembering supply always does my head in!

Jimm

[amwild]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

You may need to modify the diagram to to reflect that.

Would this be better ?

Edit : Uploaded another picture.

...

Ah, you changed the picture. The last time I looked at this I found several problem areas. But now it looks fine in all particulars. And yes, the arrows are going in the correct direction - since supply is traced from the unit to the supply source.

Supply may be traced from the unit to the source, but doesn't the supply itself run from the source to the unit? [;)]

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: amwild

Supply may be traced from the unit to the source, but doesn't the supply itself run from the source to the unit? [;)]

No.

2.4.2 Tracing supply

To be in supply, a unit must be able to trace a supply path back to a primary supply source.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: amwild

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Would this be better ?

Edit : Uploaded another picture.

...

Ah, you changed the picture. The last time I looked at this I found several problem areas. But now it looks fine in all particulars. And yes, the arrows are going in the correct direction - since supply is traced from the unit to the supply source.

Supply may be traced from the unit to the source, but doesn't the supply itself run from the source to the unit? [;)]

It is my understanding that to receive supply in any military organization, you first have to send in the proper requisition order (in at least triplicate). Clearly it is the requisition order that is being modelled in WIF. And of course, once the paper work has been properly submitted (with required, authorized signatures), supply flows immediately and efficiently to the units in the field.[:D]

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

It is my understanding that to receive supply in any military organization, you first have to send in the proper requisition order (in at least triplicate). Clearly it is the requisition order that is being modelled in WIF. And of course, once the paper work has been properly submitted (with required, authorized signatures), supply flows immediately and efficiently to the units in the field.[:D]

Supply dosn't flow it trickles (and there is no provision for sending items back).


While I was with 1st tank Battalion USMC. I worked in supply (awaiting my security clearance) the corporal tried to order: 20 feet of electrical cable one each. He got 20 one foot sections of electrical cable.


Our Communications platoon managed to trade 2 tank periscopes for some resistors and diodes which we traded to base maintenance to get repair on our radios prioritized.


While I was with 1st Shore Party Battalion USMC. We borrowed our communications equipment from 2nd tank Battalion USMC. Ours was old and broken and the battalion budget couldn't afford to have it fixed or replaced. While I was with 2nd tank Battalion USMC we always knew when 1st Shore Party Battalion was going to the field and had the equipment ready for them.


There is no evidence that while I was at 1st Marine Aircraft Wing. That we took the tools the Navy supply warehouse was using to open their crates or that we ilegialy "appropriated" items from them. This includes the 52 pound roll of combat acetate which I know nothing about. I was being watched in another part of the werehouse when it disappeared.


1st Engineer Battalion USMC received parachutes when one supply clerk (who got out of the military before they found out) managed to get signatures for the requisition of 2 F4 Phantom jets. The order for the jets was canceled. The Engineer Battalion not having an area to build an airfield for the jets.


Did you know according to U. S. military regulations you are only authorized 4 squares of toilet paper a day per individual?

[cockney]

whilst in the British Army, when on an ex in HOT conditions we were supplied with ARTIC rations (because of abundace of snow in the artic no shortage of water to boil your food)
when on excerise the colour sgt (quater master sgt for you Yanks er Americans) would requisiton rain. (always rains on an ex)
when in the field ammo and needed equipment turns up AFTER the job has been done.
the British Army also known as The Borrowers.

[Neilster]

When I was in the RAAF, flogging anything that wasn't nailed down was considered part of the remuneration package. [:D]

There was a fair old stink when HQ realised that the squadron had spent $16,000 (about US$13,500) on cleaning products in the previous year. I've still got some that I haven't got around to using yet. The RAAF paid to transport them thousands of kilometres with my free discharge removal too. [:'(]

I wasn't as bad as a lot of blokes though. In days gone by, anyone who worked at a squadron that still used Avgas had a highly modified car, running ludicrous compression ratios to use that fuel (any fuel that's drained from tanks etc only goes to the recycler anyway). One of my best mates works at Engine Section and only drives a big, fuel-guzzling 4WD because it runs on Avtur.

I remember when 76SQN was issued with new computer equipment, office chairs and the like. Things went missing pretty fast but for a while you couldn't move around the joint without tripping over a computer chair. A few months later I was looking for a chair and couldn't find one. "What happened to all those (expletive deleted) chairs?" "Ahh...mate...ahh...a lot of blokes needed one for home." During B-shift, when only the squadron boys were around, you would regularly see someone's vehicle backed up to a squadron building with Lord only knows what being tossed in the back.

Cheers, Neilster

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is the first page of my design document for rewriting the supply determination routine. Do you see any holes?
==========

Code: Select all

 // ****************************************************************************
 // For determining supply, the following sequence of tasks is performed:
 //
 // Priamry Supply Sources
 //
 // 1 - Identify fixed primary supply sources for each major power and all minor
 //     countries that are at war.  Primary supply sources are cities in the home
 //     country. The country cannot be conquered and the city has to have been
 //     controlled for the entire turn.
 // 2 - Identify mobile primary supply sources for each major power and all minor
 //     countries at war.  These are either: (1) an HQ on which a Supply Point
 //     has been expended this turn, or (2) an HQ which has been used to provide
 //     emergency supply this impulse.  An HQ providing emergeny supply has slots
 //     which identify the units being so supplied.  The number of slots equals
 //     the HQ's reorganization number.  For an HQ to serve as a primary supply
 //     source for a country, the HQ has to cooperate with the given country.
 //
 // Secondary Supply Sources
 //
 // 3 - Identify fixed secondary supply sources for each major power and all
 //     minor countries that are at war.  These are either: (1) the capital of a
 //     controlled/aligned minor country or (2) the capital of a conquered
 //     country (major or minor).  Since these are both cities, the city has to
 //     have been controlled for the entire turn.
 // 4 - Identify mobile secondary supply sources for each major power and all
 //     minor countries that are at war.  These are simply HQs that are on land.
 //     For an HQ to serve as a secondary supply source for a country, the HQ has
 //     to cooperate with the given country.
 //
 // Railway Paths from Secondary Supply Sources to Primary Supply Sources
 //
 // A - These paths are all consider Railway Paths regardless of whether a rail
 //     line connection is used or not.
 // B - The shortest direct link is made without using an overseas link if
 //     possible.
 //
 // 5 - Find the shortest direct link from each static secondary supply source to
 //     a static primary supply source.  For a primary to supply a secondary, the
 //     owner of the primary has to be the major power that aligned or conquered
 //     the secondary.  
 // 6 - Find the shortest direct link from each static secondary supply source
 //     still out of supply to a mobile primary supply source.  For a primary to
 //     supply a secondary, the owner of the primary has to be the major power
 //     that aligned or conquered the secondary.
 // 7 - Find all direct links from mobile secondary supply sources to static
 //     primary supply sources.  For a primary to supply a secondary, the owner
 //     of the primary has to be a major power with whcih the secondary
 //     cooperates.
 // 8 - Find all direct links from mobile secondary supply sources still out of
 //     supply to mobile primary supply sources.  For a primary to supply a
 //     secondary, the owner of the primary has to be a major power with whcih
 //     the secondary cooperates.
 //
 // Basic Paths from Secondary Supply Sources to other Secondary Supply Sources
 //
 // 9 - For all secondary supply sources that are still out of supply, find a
 //     Basic Path to another secondary that is in supply.  Repeat this until all
 //     secondary supply sources are in supply or until the last pass through
 //     this routine caused no new additions to the list of secondary supply
 //     soures in supply.
 //
 // Basic Paths from units to Primary or Secondary Supply Sources
 //
 // 10 - Find direct links for all non-HQ units on land to either a primary or
 //      secondary supply source.  To be a valid supply source for a unit, the
 //      source must be controlled by a country with which the unit cooperates.
 //      Some units do not need supply: Forts and Supply, Oil and Build Points.
 // ****************************************************************************
 

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is the first page of my design document for rewriting the supply determination routine. Do you see any holes?
==========

Code: Select all

 // ****************************************************************************
 // For determining supply, the following sequence of tasks is performed:
 //
 // Priamry Supply Sources
 //
 // 1 - Identify fixed primary supply sources for each major power and all minor
 //     countries that are at war.  Primary supply sources are cities in the home
 //     country. The country cannot be conquered and the city has to have been
 //     controlled for the entire turn.

Primary supply sources are also cities in home countries of major powers you cooperate with.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is the first page of my design document for rewriting the supply determination routine. Do you see any holes?
==========

Code: Select all

 // ****************************************************************************
 // For determining supply, the following sequence of tasks is performed:
 //
 // Priamry Supply Sources
 //
 // 1 - Identify fixed primary supply sources for each major power and all minor
 //     countries that are at war.  Primary supply sources are cities in the home
 //     country. The country cannot be conquered and the city has to have been
 //     controlled for the entire turn.

Primary supply sources are also cities in home countries of major powers you cooperate with.

Thanks.

I'll insert a new item between 1 and 2 to cover this.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is a revised version of the processing design document for determining unit supply.

I am already writing code towards this, so if you have any comments now would be the best time to make them.

Herein I introduce the term Tertiary Supply Source. I find it a useful term for programming but I do not know whether it would be helpful or harmful to include it in MWIF's documentation on supply.

=============

Code: Select all

 // ****************************************************************************
 // For determining supply, the following sequence of tasks is performed:
 //
 // Primary Supply Sources
 //
 // 1 - Identify fixed primary supply sources for each major power and all minor
 //     countries that are at war.  Primary supply sources are cities in the home
 //     country. The country cannot be conquered and the city has to have been
 //     controlled for the entire turn.  All Commonwealth member nations are
 //     equivalent in providing primary supply sources for the Commonwaealth.
 // 2 - Add to the list of static primary supply sources identified in #1, the
 //     primary supply sources from major powers with which a country cooperates.
 // 3 - Identify mobile primary supply sources for each major power and all minor
 //     countries at war.  These are either: (1) an HQ on which a Supply Point
 //     has been expended this turn, or (2) an HQ which has been used to provide
 //     Emergency Supply this impulse.  An HQ providing Emergeny Supply has slots
 //     which identify the units being so supplied.  The number of slots equals
 //     the HQ's reorganization number.  For an HQ to serve as a primary supply
 //     source for a country, the HQ has to cooperate with the given country.
 //
 // Secondary Supply Sources
 //
 // 4 - Identify fixed secondary supply sources for each major power and all
 //     minor countries that are at war.  These are either: (1) the capital of a
 //     controlled/aligned minor country or (2) the capital of a conquered
 //     country (major or minor).  Since these are both cities, the city has to
 //     have been controlled for the entire turn.
 // 5 - Identify mobile secondary supply sources for each major power and all
 //     minor countries that are at war.  These are simply HQs that are on land.
 //     For an HQ to serve as a secondary supply source for a country, the HQ has
 //     to cooperate with the given country.
 //
 // Railway Paths from Secondary Supply Sources to Primary Supply Sources
 //
 // A - These paths are all considered Railway Paths regardless of whether a rail
 //     line connection is used or not.
 // B - The shortest direct link is made without using an overseas link if
 //     possible.  This permits the use of the single overseas link to be
 //     preserved for later use.
 //
 // 6 - Find the shortest direct link from each static secondary supply source to
 //     a static primary supply source.  For a primary to supply a secondary, the
 //     owner of the primary has to be the major power that aligned or conquered
 //     the secondary.
 // 7 - Find the shortest direct link from each static secondary supply source
 //     still out of supply to a mobile primary supply source.  For a primary to
 //     supply a secondary, the owner of the primary has to be the major power
 //     that aligned or conquered the secondary.
 // 8 - Find all direct links from mobile secondary supply sources to static
 //     primary supply sources.  For a primary to supply a secondary, the owner
 //     of the primary has to be a major power with which the secondary
 //     cooperates.
 // 9 - Find all direct links from mobile secondary supply sources still out of
 //     supply to mobile primary supply sources.  For a primary to supply a
 //     secondary, the owner of the primary has to be a major power with which
 //     the secondary cooperates.
 //
 // Basic Paths from Tertiary Supply Sources to Secondary or other Teritary
 // Supply Sources
 //
 // C - A tertiary supply source is a secondary that cannot establish a Railway
 //     Path to a primary supply source.
 // D - The priority for which link to choose is to first select a secondary or
 //     tertiary supply source that has not used the single overseas supply link
 //     and does not require the use of the overseas link.  This permits the use
 //     of the single overseas link to be preserved for later use.
 //
 // 10 - For all tertiary supply sources that are out of supply, find a Basic
 //      Path to a secondary or tertiary that is in supply.  Repeat this until
 //      all tertiary supply sources are in supply or until the last pass through
 //      this routine caused no new additions to the list of tertiary supply
 //      sources in supply.
 //
 // Basic Paths from units to Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary Supply Sources
 //
 // 11 - Find direct links for all non-HQ units on land to a primary, secondary
 //      or tertiry supply source.  To be a valid supply source for a unit, the
 //      source must be controlled by a country with which the unit cooperates.
 //      Some units do not need supply: Forts and Supply, Oil and Build Points.
 // ****************************************************************************