CV Air Wings

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Mike Scholl
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijnaf.htm

"Shortening the amount of training was tried and, by the last year of the war, Japanese pilots were being pushed into combat missions with as little as 100 hours of flight time."

But your statement of the Japs getting only 50 to 70 hours is in error. "As little as 100 hours" doesnt mean they ALL only got 100 hours either.


You should have quoted the entire statement:

"Shortening the amount of training was tried and, by the last year of the war, Japanese pilots were being pushed into combat missions with as little as 100 hours of flight time. (By contrast, American pilots at that stage of the war[1944] would have had more than 300 hours of flight time.) When these pilots entered combat they were terrified novices, easy marks for American pilots. Even rookie American pilots were better off than this. As for experienced Japanese pilots, those who were still alive were also gradually being killed off in combat. Nor did a Japanese student pilot have to die in combat--many of them died in flying accidents, particularly when they were pushed into the cockpits of fast, unforgiving fighters. Flying accidents and training fatalities were common enough in the continental United States, but anecdotes give the impression that they were much more common in Japan. "

Your source says pretty much exactly what I said. So whatever the number of hours, the resultant product was apparently the same..., "terrified novices", "easy marks", "cannon fodder"; nothing resembling even the level 30's you suggested.
Yamato hugger
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by Yamato hugger »

You wouldnt consider 25/30 experience Jap pilots as cannon fodder against Hellcats and Corsairs?

I REALLY need to play you man. I really do. You can be Japs.
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dtravel
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well I think the original point was Mike stated that he ran out of pilots for his US airgroups and I said there are other things you can do to compensate - in a nutshell.
Yes, you're saying its not a problem because there is a work-around that involves potentially running afoul of a program bug.

I don't find that acceptable.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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Yamato hugger
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by Yamato hugger »

Is it a program bug? I dont know that. You dont know that either. What kind of losses did he have in 44 that he used up all his planes and pilots before the 45 upgrade? I mean seriously, there would have to be some really hellashious losses to use up all your planes and pilots in 44. What version is his game? Before the "pilot overflow" thing was fixed? Did he send the file to Bob for investigation? Havent seen anything to that effect either.

I dont call anything a "bug" until its actually proven to be a bug. I landed with the South Seas Detachment at Midway and sustained 440 losses out of a 5900 man landing force, and the remaining 5400 troops died of attrition at the end of the turn. I considered that a bug. Was told by Joe working as intended. It was very very unlikely that that would happen, but was possible.
Mike Scholl
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Location: Kansas City, MO

RE: CV Air Wings

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
You wouldnt consider 25/30 experience Jap pilots as cannon fodder against Hellcats and Corsairs?


Immaterial to the discussion. If the game considers well-trained new pilots fresh from the homeland training programs to be in the 55-60 range, then there is no way the poor "sacrificial lambs" the Japanese were churning out in 1944-45 should approach even half of that. They were being sent into battle in A/C they had had virtually no time to get familiar with, against people who had 100+ hours of "in type training" before they left flight school. It wasn't "fair"..., but war can be like that.
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by Yamato hugger »

OK, what exactly does Jap training time have to do with your CV air groups expanding and eating all your planes and pilots then? Isnt THAT the discussion?

What were your pilot levels before the upgrade? How many planes did you have before? Do you have before and after saves? Did you send them to Rob?

What difference does it make if allied pilots had 300 hours or 3000 hours? If you used all your pilots aircraft in '44 then it isnt a bug. If you dont agree with stock replacement levels then play CHS. I really dont know what it is you are saying anymore frankly.
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jwilkerson
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by jwilkerson »

I would suggest everybody return to your corners and take a breather - the head butting is starting to cause bleeding and is messing up the mat. So take a break and then when the break is over come back and tell us all what you guys are talking about.

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dtravel
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Is it a program bug? I dont know that. You dont know that either. What kind of losses did he have in 44 that he used up all his planes and pilots before the 45 upgrade? I mean seriously, there would have to be some really hellashious losses to use up all your planes and pilots in 44. What version is his game? Before the "pilot overflow" thing was fixed? Did he send the file to Bob for investigation? Havent seen anything to that effect either.

I dont call anything a "bug" until its actually proven to be a bug. I landed with the South Seas Detachment at Midway and sustained 440 losses out of a 5900 man landing force, and the remaining 5400 troops died of attrition at the end of the turn. I considered that a bug. Was told by Joe working as intended. It was very very unlikely that that would happen, but was possible.
The program bug I was referring to is the one where carrier based air units removed from their carriers start resetting or changing their sizes and can't be reloaded on to their carriers. It may happen primarily to USN VR squadrons but is not limited to them. It may have been fixed, it may not, but given the track record I'm not comfortable trusting that it has been. And "bugs" can be problems with how it was intended to work, not just something not working as intended. I agree with you, having a 5,000+ man unit go *poof* like that is a bug, even if it isn't the result of broken code. Its mis-designed code generating unintended consequences. Still a bug.

As for running out of USN pilots, I did as soon as the 1945 CV airgroup re-organization took effect in my game against the AI. It is not just the carrier airgroups that draw on that "nationality". All the US PBY and PBM patrol units are USN, so are most of the PB4Y bomber units as well as a number of land-based fighter and divebomber units.

And I'm not the only one. This has been debated for at least six months after one of the higher profile AARs was reporting the Allied player having to stop some offensives because his USN pilot pool was empty.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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dtravel
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I would suggest everybody return to your corners and take a breather - the head butting is starting to cause bleeding and is messing up the mat. So take a break and then when the break is over come back and tell us all what you guys are talking about.

What is the root of the current discussion is the 1945 US carrier airgroup re-organization. Besides re-sizing the three existing air units, it adds a fourth (the Corsair VBF squadrons). That unit is created "empty", having no planes or pilots. They then have to be filled from the aircraft and pilot replacement pools. Those pools are not of an appropriate size or have a reasonable rate of replenishment to support doing so.

Bringing those VBF units up to strength requires around 700 F4U-1D's and pilots. That's seven months of aircraft production in stock and and an entire year's output of pilots. Even in a game that has gone well (better than real life) for the Allied player, that sudden demand is more than can be filled. In real life the USN was not suddenly out of pilots or aircraft in 1945. It is unreasonable that this game mechanism suddenly makes them so, severly impacting their offensive capability at a time when IRL they were "picking up steam".

IMHO, it is not a situation that can be addressed by scenario or database changes. The carrier airgroup changes are hard-coded and any such Mods cannot touch the fact that those units are created empty.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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Mike Solli
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by Mike Solli »

I would think that a simple fix would be to have those air units come with planes and pilots.  I was told that Allied squadrons came with planes and the planes didn't come out of the pool.  Is that not true for air units attached to carriers?
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bradfordkay
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by bradfordkay »

Another fix that can be made in mods would be to increase the USN pilot replacement rate.
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Yamato hugger
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RE: CV Air Wings

Post by Yamato hugger »

Mods are easy. Just give the US a million of each type of pilot and dont worry about the replacement rate. (note: US not allied). Ive never run out of pilots in US groups anyway. The bottleneck for them is aircraft.
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