x.7895 issues and 7.7896 uploading

[el cid again]

Test Four undershot the warship production - breakeven (produce everything) is between 150 and 200 points per day more than we allow - and that means our x.7895 level is close enough to dead on we should NOT change it at all. Players need to not produce certain ships. But AIO and CAIO - with dumb AI as boss - either need me to edit out the ships - or to add points as a crutch - so they will build everything we want them to get.

Merchants are still a problem - so we will try 3000 more per day.

I think we can rationalize Japanese tankers getting a 2.5 multiple (vice 3) due to lousy firefighting policy. That will help a good deal. But first I want to know how big the problem is - and it is big. 3000 points is about 3 times current production (that is- 3000 plus production = 3x production) - too much to try for as such.

[el cid again]

I have been able to nail the warship production requirement - just above zero pool with 100 per cent builds

but not the merchants

Must try to reduce the requirement somehow

[goodboyladdie]

Hi Cid

Looks like you are doing more great work here. Would reducing the cost of TKs to double that of stock levels free merchant points up and still cause players to value them as they should? Sorry if this suggestion is not helpful, but it would seem to reduce requirements...

Very best regards

Carl

[el cid again]

The problem with that is it forces me to redefine every auxiliary - a monsterous job - or say aux = tankers - not what I wish to do.

But we are making progress - I have a test which is encouraging.

[goodboyladdie]

Good luck.

When you have finally got this element to the point that you are happy, will we have a stable enough platform for Mike and I to have our fourth (and maybe last) attempt at an EOS game?

I think your life would be considerably eased if you cut the number of scenarios supported. Currently you are pulled all over the place and it can't be healthy for you, or great for the mod. I think all the scenarios where Russia is not active could be dropped. Players could agree just to ignore Russia (though they would have to make sure they stood down air units, plus new arrivals) and that would take away some of your duplicated effort. How many players play the different levels? If one map option is the preferred choice of most users this would allow you to drop one or two levels altogether. These are just ideas expressed out of concern that you give too much of yourself and your time.

[el cid again]

If you only knew. I work on China - and monitor the web around the clock. Something major is happening there - since summer - and my work load is increasing exponentially - since we are not institutionjally geared to study PRC (since Clinton spent 8 years firing anyone in any agency who sait it might be a problem - most senior people think it isn't). Then I have a real job, a family, and I am an active person in other ways. Would you believe I never watch TV?

I only do passive Russian scenarios because most peope cannot bend their minds around Russian active ones.

I also support 12 scenarios of Levels 5 and 6 because I want to leave them functional - and we still have players in them.

But I plan to drop them - probably this time.

I think we will do this update in a few hours. I have CVO done with river vessels. I have AIO anc CAIO with somewhat better air group programming. I have some eratta punched. But I want to get the ship production somewhat more functional. [Warships are done - this is non -warships]

I have a way we might do this fast - but I need to check the manual.

[el cid again]

A Shiretoko class AO served IRL as a seaplane tender - until late 1942 - but appears not to have had an air group when the war began. It seems absent from all forms of WITP. All scenarios except EEO have this ship as an AV now - but no air group (although a player may assign a seaplane squadron or detachments to this ship). It can convert to an AO at any time. EEO starts with it as an AO, but ALL Shiretoko's may convert to AV form from summer 1942 if the player wants to do so.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If you only knew. I work on China - and monitor the web around the clock. Something major is happening there - since summer - and my work load is increasing exponentially - since we are not institutionjally geared to study PRC (since Clinton spent 8 years firing anyone in any agency who sait it might be a problem - most senior people think it isn't). Then I have a real job, a family, and I am an active person in other ways. Would you believe I never watch TV?

Sid, I sure wasn't going to ask about your personal life but I sure was curious because I too am amazed. I knew you worked but considering your accumulated service experience I figured you were there on the Missouri when the treaty was sign. I am almost not kidding. I also figured that your family had to be the extended WITP family and you were an Alaskan shut in with a wood stove and a large pot of coffee. No disrespect intended, in fact just the opposite, you are amazing.

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

A Shiretoko class AO served IRL as a seaplane tender - until late 1942 - but appears not to have had an air group when the war began. It seems absent from all forms of WITP. All scenarios except EEO have this ship as an AV now - but no air group (although a player may assign a seaplane squadron or detachments to this ship). It can convert to an AO at any time. EEO starts with it as an AO, but ALL Shiretoko's may convert to AV form from summer 1942 if the player wants to do so.

Surely it's more use to the vast majority of players in it's original capacity, especially with the reduced ranges of many warships. Does the default value of mission speed mean the tf moves at cruise speed most of the time and high speed when necessary for the mission? I researched values for the County Class just to see where you are coming from and your ranges would definitely be representative of the above scenario. Looks like I will have to come round to your way of thinking on that subject too! I have one refuge: You'll never convince me that Dick Bong would have got so many kills in one of your P-38s! [:D]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If you only knew. I work on China - and monitor the web around the clock. Something major is happening there - since summer - and my work load is increasing exponentially - since we are not institutionjally geared to study PRC (since Clinton spent 8 years firing anyone in any agency who sait it might be a problem - most senior people think it isn't). Then I have a real job, a family, and I am an active person in other ways. Would you believe I never watch TV?

Sid, I sure wasn't going to ask about your personal life but I sure was curious because I too am amazed. I knew you worked but considering your accumulated service experience I figured you were there on the Missouri when the treaty was sign. I am almost not kidding. I also figured that your family had to be the extended WITP family and you were an Alaskan shut in with a wood stove and a large pot of coffee. No disrespect intended, in fact just the opposite, you are amazing.

I was in China during the Gulf War - seems PRC wanted us to get into a long fight in Iraq and tried to insure we did by sending things to them by air and sea - including a nasty bw weapon. This is why all members of the armed forces, everyone in Israel and everyone in the Gulf States got immunized. But how did we know what to immunize against? We were given a sample of the weapon by someone in PRC. We did not know until the second Iraq invasion that Iraq was incompetent and could not mass produce the weapon - but we DID know they could deliver it on a ballistic missile (normally impossible due to heat of reentry - but Iraq had a special insulated warhead) While in China I got an instant family. My daughter is now 16 years old. When she was eight I ended up being a single parent for a while. So I am not a normal US father who spends 6 minutes a day with my child.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

ORIGINAL: el cid again

A Shiretoko class AO served IRL as a seaplane tender - until late 1942 - but appears not to have had an air group when the war began. It seems absent from all forms of WITP. All scenarios except EEO have this ship as an AV now - but no air group (although a player may assign a seaplane squadron or detachments to this ship). It can convert to an AO at any time. EEO starts with it as an AO, but ALL Shiretoko's may convert to AV form from summer 1942 if the player wants to do so.

Surely it's more use to the vast majority of players in it's original capacity, especially with the reduced ranges of many warships. Does the default value of mission speed mean the tf moves at cruise speed most of the time and high speed when necessary for the mission? I researched values for the County Class just to see where you are coming from and your ranges would definitely be representative of the above scenario. Looks like I will have to come round to your way of thinking on that subject too! I have one refuge: You'll never convince me that Dick Bong would have got so many kills in one of your P-38s! [:D]

Maybe. Maybe not. What did he kill?

In air combat, a kill is a kill is a kill. We count everything. P-38s shot down Adm Yamamoto in transit - in two bomber-transports - without escort - badly outnumbered. Yet both those planes count as a kill by someone. Is a fight between a P 38 and a Nell (or whatever it was) a fair fight? No - but it still counts.

P-38s great range was a reason they could kill successfully. So was their twin engine layout - which counts in RHS because it contributes two extra points to durability (whatever counts is multiplied by a k of 2 - and number of engines counts). In a normal fighter plane, you lose an engine far at sea - you cannot go home. Not so a P-38. This is still a factor today - PLANAF prefers two engine fighters for long range over water operations.

Another factor was tactics. P-38s knew they could not compete in a furball - and they would go in high - dive and fire while gaining still more speed - and run. Now that implies something to me: in game terms these were not ideal dogfighters.

Part of the problem is that I cannot split horizontal and vertical maneuverability, nor address different altitudes for either. A composite factor masks where a plane is good - and it is too bad. But I did not design this system - I only feed it data. I believe we have evolved a system that works for this plane as well as others so it does not need a special adjustment to be fairly represented. But as a computer (and non computer) modeler, it is probably easier for me to think of the data as a set - rather than be overly focused on one factor. Watch P-38s in the game - that is their pilots - I bet some will score very well. They have speed, ROC, firepower, durability and range. Not bad things in sum.

[goodboyladdie]

Victory credits
Date Kills Location/Comment
December 27, 1942 2 over Buna
January 7, 1943 2 Oscars over Lae
January 8 1 over Lae Harbor, ace status
March 3 1 A6M Zero during Battle of the Bismarck Sea
March 11 2 Zeroes
March 29 1 heavy bomber; promoted to 1st Lieutenant.
April 14 1 bomber, over Milne Bay. Awarded Air Medal.
June 12 1 Zero, over Bena Bena
July 26 4 fighters, on escort over Lae; awarded DSC
July 28 1 Oscar, on escort over New Britain.
September 6 0 claimed two bombers, not confirmed; crash-landed at Mailinan airstrip
October 2 1 Mitsubishi Ki-46 "Dinah", over Gasmata
October 29 2 Zeros, over Japanese airfield at Rabaul
November 5 2 Zeros, over enemy airfield at Rabaul
December 1943-January 1944: On leave in Wisconsin
February 1944: assigned to Fifth Air Force Fighter Command HQ, but allowed to "free-lance".
February 15 1 Tony off Cape Hoskins, New Britain
February 28 0 destroyed a Japanese transport plane on the runway at Wewak, New Guinea
March 3 2 Mitsubishi Ki-21 "Sally" bombers, over Tadji, New Guinea
April 3 1 fighter over Hollandia, 25th credit
April 12 3 surpassed Eddie Rickenbacker's U.S. record of 26 kills
May-July 1944: on leave in U.S., made publicity tours
October 27 1
October 28 2 Oscars off Leyte
November 10 1 Oscar over Ormoc Bay
November 11 2 Recommended for Medal of Honor.
December 7 2 Sally and Nakajima Ki-44 "Tojo", covering U.S. landings at Ormoc
December 15 1 Oscar
December 16? 1 Oscar over Mindoro.


The above list is borrowed from Wiki. As you can see, it was mostly fighters. I'll see if I can dig up what he was flying at the various times. He is known to have underclaimed to avoid being sent home, which makes him quite unusual.

[goodboyladdie]

"Now that implies something to me: in game terms these were not ideal dogfighters."

When I come up with statements like that you shoot me down in flames with mathematics. I know this is old ground for you, but the P-38 was not the dog you have created. Yes it was fast, yes it was long-legged, yes it had two engines, BUT it was more manoeuvrable than you give it credit. There have been posts in the past where evaluation reports have been produced where it is tested against other fighters. If I have time later I'll search them out, but someone elase may have them to hand.

[el cid again]

Yeah - but not all - and note the dates. Fighting Oscars or Zeros in 1943 or 1944 is not exactly a fair fight. These are planes without armor.
The Oscar has no cannon at all and only two guns (possibly - probably - one of which is a .30 cal). Not very impressive competition.

We used to hunt Me-262s with propeller fighters - over their own airfield. Returning home out of gas, they were easy prey. He may have some of those sorts of things. Tired pilots out of ammo, unable to maneuver, flying low and slow - you swoop down behind em and clean up. What can they do? Not very much.

Air combat is not fair. And 9 in 10 kills are one sided in another sense: the target never knew it was a fight, never saw the attacker. P-38 can do very well - and in PTO did do very well - but it isn't going to look as good in a head to head strait up fight as IRL - because IRL you don't usually fight that way.

[Mistmatz]

Some minor findings regarding ANZAC command (under 7.7895). In some cases of wrong nationality I believe it was set intentionally to simulate natives. Not sure if nationality has any relevance anyway...


UnitID Name Type Nationality Error
2585 AUST Perth Industry Coastal defense unit Dutch Nationality/Planning
2588 AA Whyalla Coastal defense unit New Zealand Nationality/Planning
3333 AA/RAAF Melbourne Coastal defense unit Australian Planning
2735 FF Tahiti Station Coastal defense unit French Planning
2646 NZA Det 9th Hvy CD Coastal defense unit New Zealand Planning
2602 NZA Tonga Def Force Coastal defense unit Philippines Nationality/Planning
2599 AA NGVR Infantry unit Philippines Nationality
2596 AA Papuan Infantry Infantry unit Philippines Nationality
2544 AA Christmas I Coastal defense unit Indian Nationality
2667 USMC Samoan Marine Infantry unit Philippines Nationality

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Yeah - but not all - and note the dates. Fighting Oscars or Zeros in 1943 or 1944 is not exactly a fair fight. These are planes without armor.
The Oscar has no cannon at all and only two guns (possibly - probably - one of which is a .30 cal). Not very impressive competition.

We used to hunt Me-262s with propeller fighters - over their own airfield. Returning home out of gas, they were easy prey. He may have some of those sorts of things. Tired pilots out of ammo, unable to maneuver, flying low and slow - you swoop down behind em and clean up. What can they do? Not very much.

Air combat is not fair. And 9 in 10 kills are one sided in another sense: the target never knew it was a fight, never saw the attacker. P-38 can do very well - and in PTO did do very well - but it isn't going to look as good in a head to head strait up fight as IRL - because IRL you don't usually fight that way.

I know air combat is not fair Old Chap, but the point is the P-38 was a true fighter and not a fighter version of a bomber, which is where you have stuck it. The F and G models exposed it's limitations at certain heights in MTO/ETO combat, which allowed the big improvements in the J/L.

[witpqs]

Sid, if someone else rejected hard test data (as presented in the scans of WWII test results documents) in favor of their own mathematical formula the way that you have been doing, you would cry foul. The combat results are corroborative, not mere anecdotes in a vacuum.

[Mistmatz]

Anybody knows which hexes trigger the indo-china japanese militia in RHS (see manual chapter 8.8)?

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

While in China I got an instant family. My daughter is now 16 years old. When she was eight I ended up being a single parent for a while. So I am not a normal US father who spends 6 minutes a day with my child.

That is really cool Sid. You go for it.

I am ashamed to say it but I wasted the childhood relationship with my 2 daughters (now 42 & 43) by being a selfish young man. Enough on that subject.

[Buck Beach]

M1bob, I'm interested where do you weigh in on this P-38 issue?  Other than the recon models of the plane I didn't see where you had considered adjusting the formula.