OT-Ships in Gibraltar

[mlees]

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

London was within ME-109 fighter range,

Good point! Forgot about that.

also bombing London had the function of getting the Brits to capitulate.

Sinking Britain's navy would have the same effect. True, if Scapa had been made untenable by air threat (like the Channel Ports), the RN could have moved to Glasgow or Belfast.

But I think that Scapa Flow was left alone for the reasons given by others above, not through "lack of will".

[Historiker]

So the question is how many competitive...

If this were in the pacific, it might be worth a try as naval warfare was decicive there. But even a most successfull attack would only be good for propaganda use and for moral in Germany, the blockade would still be tight...

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: mlees

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

London was within ME-109 fighter range,

Good point! Forgot about that.

also bombing London had the function of getting the Brits to capitulate.

Sinking Britain's navy would have the same effect. True, if Scapa had been made untenable by air threat (like the Channel Ports), the RN could have moved to Glasgow or Belfast.

But I think that Scapa Flow was left alone for the reasons given by others above, not through "lack of will".

Many operations and tactics are just a question of will.

The Kaiser didn't have the will to risk his fleet, so the High Seas Fleet stayed in port most of the war.
The Luftwaffe wasn't willed to pay the price for an attack on Scapa, so it never occured.
France wasn't willed to fight on despite high losses and perhaps even continue to fight from the colonies while their motherland is conquered - so the capitualted (except Charles de Gaulle)

The Japanese on the other hand were willed to pay the price for a higher chance of hitting ships and for an extended range for doing this - so they formed Kamikaze Missions - which seem unthinkable for allied Nations to me...

[Miller]

Could any German a/c lug a torpedo over long range in 1940? You are not going to sink anything of value sitting in port with bombs alone......

[sprior]

Here's an interesting article about an attack on Scapa in late '39 by the Luftwaffe:

http://www.orcadian.co.uk/features/articles/fritz.htm

[wild_Willie2]

ORIGINAL: Miller

Could any German a/c lug a torpedo over long range in 1940? You are not going to sink anything of value sitting in port with bombs alone......

I know that the He-111 could carry at least 1 torpedo over a good distance, it even carried 2 in shorter naval strikes of norway.

I also know that a ju-88 torpedo carrier was used during attacks in the med, althoug I doubt that a succesfull torpedo attack would have been feasible in a harbour as small as gibraltar.

Germans planes had a decent bombload, and even better, a decent 500kg AP bomb which could penetrate even BB deck armour.

[cantona2]

aaaa Home Sweet Home [:D]

Willie, torpedo attacks would have been feasable flying in from the Western side, and then veering North West, but all that presupposes flying over Spanish air space

[DaveB]

However, for Scapa at least -
the RN weren't sitting in port, lined up ready to be sunk, even if the presumed raid made it through the fighters (at least one HE111 attack got cut to pieces, having been intercepted by a Spit squadron sent north from the Battle of Britain to recuperate...) An awful lot of RN ships were out escorting convoys,  and generally spread all over the place - the hunt for the Bismarck illustrates this quite well, once Prince of Wales and Hood had left the picture the capital ships were being diverted from as far afield as Gib (Force H) and Halifax, and taken off convoy escort to race to the scene. I would have said it was a simple, commonsense, no brainer - why risk losing the cream of your bomber force for quite modest possible returns, especially when you are still trying to bomb the enemy capital (and, prior to that, airfields) into submission 600 miles further south?
 
As has also been pointed out, if attacks on Scapa had been a problem then the fleet would simply have shifted base - as the RN did when moving their convoy protection/ASW assets to Liverpool for the battle of the Atlantic. No shortage, really, of bases to hand, should existing ports prove too dangerous for capital ships to anchor.

[Dili]

Normal bombers didnt had range to attack Gibraltar. Only Piaggios 108(only 24 made), SM 81(obsolete) and i think they tried with Cant Z1007.  

For Decima Flotilla Special Forces:

[*]September 24, 1940: The Italian submarine Sciré, commanded by Commander Junio Valerio Borghese, departs La Spezia carrying three manned torpedoes and four crews, for a planned attack on the British naval base at Gibraltar. However, this operation is canceled as the British fleet leaves the harbor before the submarine arrives.

[*]September 10, 1941: The Sciré departs La Spezia carrying three manned torpedoes. At Cadiz, Spain, it secretly loads eight crewmen for them. At Gibraltar, the manned torpedoes sink three ships: the tankers Denbydale and Fiona Shell and the cargo ship Durham. All six crewmen swim to Spain and return safely to Italy, where they are decorated, as are the crew of the Sciré. Borghese is promoted to the rank of captain and is confirmed as the unit commander.

[*]July 1942: Italian frogmen set up in a secret base in the Italian tanker Olterra which was interned in Algeciras near Gibraltar. All materials had to be moved secretly through Spain and this limited operations.

July 13, 1942: Twelve Italian frogmen swam from the Olterra into Gibraltar harbor and set explosives, and then returned safely. They sank four ships.

[*]December 17, 1942: Six Italians on three torpedoes left the Olterra to attack the three British warships HMS Nelson, HMS Formidable, and HMS Furious in Gibraltar. A British patrol boat killed one torpedo's crew (Lt. Visintini and Petty Officer Magro) with a depth charge. Their bodies were recovered, and their swimfins were taken and used by two of Gibraltar's British guard divers (who dived with Davis Escape Sets and (up to here) breast stroke swimming and no fins) (Sydney Knowles and Commander Lionel Crabb). Another British patrol boat spotted another torpedo, and chased and shot at it and captured its two crewmen. The remaining torpedo returned to the Olterra without its rear rider.

May 8, 1943: Three Italian manned torpedoes left the tanker Olterra to attack Gibraltar in bad weather and sank three British ships. All returned safely to the Olterra.

[*]August 3, 1943: In the evening, three Italian manned torpedoes left the Olterra to attack Gibraltar and sank three ships and returned to the Olterra, but one of their men was captured.

[*]September 8, 1943: The new Badoglio government of Italy signed an armistice with the Allies and changed sides. The Olterra was towed into Gibraltar, and the British found what had happened in it.

October 2, 1943: An attack on Gibraltar using the new and larger replacement for the SLC (the Siluro San Bartolomeo type) is called off due to the Italian surrender.


Great Circle Map Website shows 745nm between Ajaccio(Corsica)-Gibraltar http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=GIB-AJA going over Spain. Which means to be completely safe a range of over 3000km is needed.

[cantona2]

Dili,
 
If you're into Italian Forces in ww2 i can recommend the Commando Supremo site

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

To intercept an air raid totally (no bombers coming through inflicting damage), there are a lot of things that have to happen:
- the raid needs to be detected in time
- the wether must be good enough (bombing may be inaccurate in storms, but the bombers may fly home to bases with calm wether)
- there have to be enough fighters
- the fighters must inflict enough damage to drive off all the bombers...

On the other hand - if there's the will to do so - one can transfer over a thousand bombers over night to norvegian bases, one may attack early in the morning, one may fly there at low level...

If Germany had the will to accept high losses - and the Luftwaffe had this will on other operations - it can definitly mount an attack with over 300 bombers - if not more...

We have an adage in Germany "Wo ein Wille, da ein Weg" (where's a will, there's a way) - if one really wants to attack the fleet with a high chance of success, it can be done when the price is accepted...

Well, the did not. And, knowing the Germans, if they thought the could pull it off they would have. That pretty much speaks for itself.

[Grell]

Yup the Germans missed out big time by not attempting to hit Gib.

Regards,

Grell

[seydlitz_slith]

I didn't see it mentioned, but the battleship in the pictures is HMS Vanguard, the last battleship ever constructed. She didn't enter service until 1946 I believe, and was removed in 1960, so that should frame up the time period for the photos.  Also, her turrets were the 15" turrets that had been removed from the WWI battlecruisers Glorious and Courageous when they were converted to aircraft carriers.

[cantona2]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

I didn't see it mentioned, but the battleship in the pictures is HMS Vanguard, the last battleship ever constructed. She didn't enter service until 1946 I believe, and was removed in 1960, so that should frame up the time period for the photos.  Also, her turrets were the 15" turrets that had been removed from the WWI battlecruisers Glorious and Courageous when they were converted to aircraft carriers.

Thanks seydlitz