ORIGINAL: Dino
Done right, I think the Allies don't have to retreat at all. [:)]
Yeaaah they have choice to die on place ![:D]
early war use of PP for allies
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: early war use of PP for allies
Yeaaah they have choice to die on place ![:D]
-
kfmiller41
- Posts: 1063
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:00 pm
- Location: Saint Marys, Ga
- Contact:
RE: early war use of PP for allies
Not on a CHS map they don't[:-] I am playing Japan in my PBEM game and got to agressive in burma now I have 30000 men trapped in Rangoon (they couldnt storm the city) as units snuck in down the major road behind them thats not on the stock map[:o]. Needless to say unless I get help to them quick they are toast.
You have the ability to arouse various emotions in me: please select carefully.
RE: early war use of PP for allies
ORIGINAL: miller41
Not on a CHS map they don't[:-] I am playing Japan in my PBEM game and got to agressive in burma now I have 30000 men trapped in Rangoon (they couldnt storm the city) as units snuck in down the major road behind them thats not on the stock map[:o]. Needless to say unless I get help to them quick they are toast.
Mmmm... toast...
- Attachments
-
- toast.jpg (30.88 KiB) Viewed 215 times
-
kfmiller41
- Posts: 1063
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:00 pm
- Location: Saint Marys, Ga
- Contact:
RE: early war use of PP for allies
Thats them in a nutshell[:D]
You have the ability to arouse various emotions in me: please select carefully.
-
bradfordkay
- Posts: 8686
- Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:39 am
- Location: Olympia, WA
RE: early war use of PP for allies
I had the commonwealth brigades on the Salween River crossing on the CHS map and they managed to throw back Chez' first attempt to cross. I hadn't believed in their ability to hold the river line so I had already evacuated Rangoon. Chez then dropped paratroops on Rangoon (I should have left something!) and so I had to withdraw anyway - as I expected to have to do in the first place.
I do still hold Mandalay and Lashio (April '43), so it hasn't been all bad. However, that's partly due to a lack of interest in the area on his part. He's having too much fun controlling the northern coast of Australia...[:(]
I do still hold Mandalay and Lashio (April '43), so it hasn't been all bad. However, that's partly due to a lack of interest in the area on his part. He's having too much fun controlling the northern coast of Australia...[:(]
fair winds,
Brad
Brad
RE: early war use of PP for allies
I found AI surprisingly aggressive vs. Rangoon while I held the river line until the Chinese corps could come over from No. Burma and settle the odds. Fortunately the Rangoon Garrison unit is fairly fit and it held the first time the surprise happened [edit: by sea!] and I never left it unreinforced after that. AI tried at least 4 times, sending a tank regt last 2 [??]. I found the LB air - scoured from all India and refitted from Singapore - highly effective in damaging the JA divisions that came up, blunting their assaults until they fell back. It was tricky though, alternating between hitting the troopships and supply ships coming up from Malaya and hitting the local ground threats. Later AI brought up both army and IJN air and really fleeced my Hurricane and Buffalo squadrons at Rangoon, most down to 2-3 planes, but my counterbombing of AF [again when not hitting ground and sea threats] finally wore them down.
What AI could not deal with however, was my offensive vs. Hanoi, reinf by half the LCU from Yenan, eventually sweeping all Indochina and cutting off the JA in Burma before rein came up the Kra to help. The JA divisoon in Hanoi went east to assist in SW China, was thus cut off, leaving VN divs garrisoning the Indochinese cities.
More tweaking the tail of AI came when in No China/Manchuria the Hopei Militia Div managed to infiltrate into Manchuria, taking four cities, the last Darien and Pyongyang; that’s two industrial cities. They become USSR cities when taken, so maybe AI can’t attack them, as they made not a single move.
What AI could not deal with however, was my offensive vs. Hanoi, reinf by half the LCU from Yenan, eventually sweeping all Indochina and cutting off the JA in Burma before rein came up the Kra to help. The JA divisoon in Hanoi went east to assist in SW China, was thus cut off, leaving VN divs garrisoning the Indochinese cities.
More tweaking the tail of AI came when in No China/Manchuria the Hopei Militia Div managed to infiltrate into Manchuria, taking four cities, the last Darien and Pyongyang; that’s two industrial cities. They become USSR cities when taken, so maybe AI can’t attack them, as they made not a single move.
RE: early war use of PP for allies
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: miller41
Not on a CHS map they don't[:-] I am playing Japan in my PBEM game and got to agressive in burma now I have 30000 men trapped in Rangoon (they couldnt storm the city) as units snuck in down the major road behind them thats not on the stock map[:o]. Needless to say unless I get help to them quick they are toast.
Mmmm... toast...
Could do with a bit of butter and maybe some jam... but Mmmm toast...
yo yo yo
RE: early war use of PP for allies
AI vs. PBEM is a big difference. Game 1, a few weeks of the campaign to get up to speed on the differences vs. WPO (mostly weapons instead of engine). Started Game 2 in earnest. The AI stalled at Mandalay (that turned into a green Stalingrad for the AI Japanese). It took me until early September to kill the Japanese at Mandalay (Rangoon fell in July to a flanking movement), but in October and November the Brits have blitzed to Saigon and to the gates of Singapore. There wasn't a strong enough reserve once the front tier divisions were trapped and wiped out at Mandalay. SEAsia long-range LBA are scourging the South China Sea from Bien Hoa and Phomn Phen. The Yunan divisions are massing at the DMZ and will re-enter China via Hanoi and Haiphong. What's more, the fighting at Mandalay has their experience into the 90's - likewise for a lot of the Commonwealth units (2nd Infantry, 18th Infantry, and 7th Armored are all 98 experience).
However, I know a human could have cleaned me out of the DEI and the Philippines a lot more quickly and organized a relief of Mandalay so I might well have been thrown at least as far back as the historical line in Assam. In PBEM the early Allied game has to be reactive because the Kido Butai and the Zero bonus give the Japanese an overwhelming, if fleeting, advantage. Human vs. AI you can conduct local raids almost from the outset of the game, and genuine long-term offensives by the summer of 1942, but I would probably delay that by about six months against an experienced human opponent.
However, I know a human could have cleaned me out of the DEI and the Philippines a lot more quickly and organized a relief of Mandalay so I might well have been thrown at least as far back as the historical line in Assam. In PBEM the early Allied game has to be reactive because the Kido Butai and the Zero bonus give the Japanese an overwhelming, if fleeting, advantage. Human vs. AI you can conduct local raids almost from the outset of the game, and genuine long-term offensives by the summer of 1942, but I would probably delay that by about six months against an experienced human opponent.
-
sventhebold
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:16 pm
- Location: From MN now AZ Prescott Valley
RE: early war use of PP for allies
Hey Engineer What mod are you using for this? I am playing Scen 157 CHS 208 Nik Mod It's 3-16-42
as the Allies I've sunk 251 of the Jap AI to my 194 including the Kaga Soryu and Ryujo and beat up the rest of the KB pretty badly only lost Enterprise and Formidable. I've got the Jap army boxed up in PI in Baguio and are beating them pretty well. They have landed twice at Legapasi and i have wiped them out both times. They landed at Kuching and Davao both I wiped them out there too. They approached Rangoon but I was waiting for them with everything I could scrape togetherand now i have pushed them back through Molemein and Tavoy and am outside Bangkok resuppling. I've got the Malaya Jap thrust bottled up in 23,47 and Johore Bahru and are holding them.
Meanwhile since i still hold Kuanatan I am blasting every convoy that enters the gulf and have my subs strung out from Khota Bahru to Formosa and even with bad torps i still am picking them off fairly often. Is this normal? I even have it set on hard not historical......[&:][&:][&:]
as the Allies I've sunk 251 of the Jap AI to my 194 including the Kaga Soryu and Ryujo and beat up the rest of the KB pretty badly only lost Enterprise and Formidable. I've got the Jap army boxed up in PI in Baguio and are beating them pretty well. They have landed twice at Legapasi and i have wiped them out both times. They landed at Kuching and Davao both I wiped them out there too. They approached Rangoon but I was waiting for them with everything I could scrape togetherand now i have pushed them back through Molemein and Tavoy and am outside Bangkok resuppling. I've got the Malaya Jap thrust bottled up in 23,47 and Johore Bahru and are holding them.
Meanwhile since i still hold Kuanatan I am blasting every convoy that enters the gulf and have my subs strung out from Khota Bahru to Formosa and even with bad torps i still am picking them off fairly often. Is this normal? I even have it set on hard not historical......[&:][&:][&:]
ssgt usaf 84-91 f-15a/c ops puke 525 tfs & 7th tfs
RE: early war use of PP for allies
My experience was with a lightly modded stock campaign (I added P-80's, Bearcats, several very late carriers and cruisers for the USN and the AGC modded Treasury-class cutters, and upgraded the anchorage at Lahaina) so for 1942 it's stock for all intents and purposes.
Right there you have a big difference in the how the map and air combat will play out. You do seem to be having a lot of success. Here's how my campaign played out.
Malaya: The Japanese air power in Indochina forced me to be very careful in handling Force Z. The campaign there went pretty well with the surface forces and air power sinking 200+ ships through the full siege of Singapore before the Japs moved their air power onto Malaya in full force. However, once Japanese troops got ashore, between the poor readiness of the Malayan Army and the no-prep rule that the Japanese have until March, I couldn't find a combination to hold the ports on the east shore. Once the ports fall and the air power comes across, then Malacca Strait is closed to surface traffic and surface traffic into Singapore becomes tenuous. Singapore held out until early May. Then the bulk of the victorious Japanese army marched to Mandalay and their doom.
DEI: The AI landed at Menardo three times. The first two were rolled back, but there was too much air power the last time to risk the Asiatic Fleet for the bombardment runs. It took until late 1942 for the Japanese to reach their high-tide mark in this front, and even then, the Allies held onto most of Timor, the Sumatran side of the Sunda Strait, and the Darwin Pale (the small islands within easy range of the port. The first invasion of Palembang was turned back with surface sorties from Batavia and even a carrier raid by the British, but Palembang is too important for the Japanese for even the AI to give up. The KB did two sorties through the Java Sea and sank anything that stuck it's nose out of port, and lost the Soryu for its trouble when I set up a sub trap of Dutch and S-boats.
Philippines: I almost sank the Ryujo when my B-17's got lucky with some mid-altitude ~8000 feet raids. But Mindanao fell quickly. I forted up in Manila and managed to get about 20,000 to 30,000 points of supply into Luzon before the Japanese air power locked down a blockade. At that point, the AI left the middle islands alone and seiged Manila. The city eventually fell in September after imposing heavy losses. With that much time, I pulled out all but one of the aviation base forces, three Scout regiments that had been worn down to cadres, and the 81st PA division from Cebu. Once Manila fell, the Japanese wrapped up the rest of the archipelago in about six weeks.
KB: There was too much LBA for me to hunt for the KB in the DEI, but with solid contact, small raiding TF's of US carriers nibbled at the Central Pacific and boosted their air group experience levels. I forted up PM with lots of divisions and 400+ planes. In June the KB attacked and shot down a lot of planes to no real end. They also brought in a "junior" KB with a torpedo damaged Shokaku (an S-boat hit from the DEI sorties) and CVL's. The LBA at PM didn't dent the first string, but sank the "junior" KB. My "Midway" was at Kirawani in August. I had already decided try to entice a battle on a field where my concentrated carriers (all in separate TF's) would be operating under lots of friendly LBA. My earlier landing at Lunga didn't provoke a reaction so I decided to make a direct threat to Rabaul. I was moving a division in to hold and develop that base within B-25 range of Rabaul so I could eventually shut down Rabaul. I had all my June refits complete on the US carriers plus a British CV and CVL so when the fight played out, I had 7 CV's and a CVL + about 500 LBA between PM, Gili Gili, and Buna against 5 CVs + about 100 LBA and a CV in Rabaul. When the smoke cleared all six Japanese CV's were on the bottom and the Japanese strikes landed on the British carrier group. She survived damage what would have sunk any of my US carriers, and the pursuit snapped up the carrier in Rabaul.
With the destruction of the KB in August I was toying with a relief expedition to Manila, but things wrapped up there too quickly to continue to tempt me. My guess it would have ended in a debacle (a TF slipping out of the defensive globe and being devoured by Betty's) and then some nasty night surface actions with US cruisers and destroyers versus Japanese CA's and battlewagons. The globe attrits and then loses critical mass somewhere around Cebu or Palawan, ugggh!)
Right there you have a big difference in the how the map and air combat will play out. You do seem to be having a lot of success. Here's how my campaign played out.
Malaya: The Japanese air power in Indochina forced me to be very careful in handling Force Z. The campaign there went pretty well with the surface forces and air power sinking 200+ ships through the full siege of Singapore before the Japs moved their air power onto Malaya in full force. However, once Japanese troops got ashore, between the poor readiness of the Malayan Army and the no-prep rule that the Japanese have until March, I couldn't find a combination to hold the ports on the east shore. Once the ports fall and the air power comes across, then Malacca Strait is closed to surface traffic and surface traffic into Singapore becomes tenuous. Singapore held out until early May. Then the bulk of the victorious Japanese army marched to Mandalay and their doom.
DEI: The AI landed at Menardo three times. The first two were rolled back, but there was too much air power the last time to risk the Asiatic Fleet for the bombardment runs. It took until late 1942 for the Japanese to reach their high-tide mark in this front, and even then, the Allies held onto most of Timor, the Sumatran side of the Sunda Strait, and the Darwin Pale (the small islands within easy range of the port. The first invasion of Palembang was turned back with surface sorties from Batavia and even a carrier raid by the British, but Palembang is too important for the Japanese for even the AI to give up. The KB did two sorties through the Java Sea and sank anything that stuck it's nose out of port, and lost the Soryu for its trouble when I set up a sub trap of Dutch and S-boats.
Philippines: I almost sank the Ryujo when my B-17's got lucky with some mid-altitude ~8000 feet raids. But Mindanao fell quickly. I forted up in Manila and managed to get about 20,000 to 30,000 points of supply into Luzon before the Japanese air power locked down a blockade. At that point, the AI left the middle islands alone and seiged Manila. The city eventually fell in September after imposing heavy losses. With that much time, I pulled out all but one of the aviation base forces, three Scout regiments that had been worn down to cadres, and the 81st PA division from Cebu. Once Manila fell, the Japanese wrapped up the rest of the archipelago in about six weeks.
KB: There was too much LBA for me to hunt for the KB in the DEI, but with solid contact, small raiding TF's of US carriers nibbled at the Central Pacific and boosted their air group experience levels. I forted up PM with lots of divisions and 400+ planes. In June the KB attacked and shot down a lot of planes to no real end. They also brought in a "junior" KB with a torpedo damaged Shokaku (an S-boat hit from the DEI sorties) and CVL's. The LBA at PM didn't dent the first string, but sank the "junior" KB. My "Midway" was at Kirawani in August. I had already decided try to entice a battle on a field where my concentrated carriers (all in separate TF's) would be operating under lots of friendly LBA. My earlier landing at Lunga didn't provoke a reaction so I decided to make a direct threat to Rabaul. I was moving a division in to hold and develop that base within B-25 range of Rabaul so I could eventually shut down Rabaul. I had all my June refits complete on the US carriers plus a British CV and CVL so when the fight played out, I had 7 CV's and a CVL + about 500 LBA between PM, Gili Gili, and Buna against 5 CVs + about 100 LBA and a CV in Rabaul. When the smoke cleared all six Japanese CV's were on the bottom and the Japanese strikes landed on the British carrier group. She survived damage what would have sunk any of my US carriers, and the pursuit snapped up the carrier in Rabaul.
With the destruction of the KB in August I was toying with a relief expedition to Manila, but things wrapped up there too quickly to continue to tempt me. My guess it would have ended in a debacle (a TF slipping out of the defensive globe and being devoured by Betty's) and then some nasty night surface actions with US cruisers and destroyers versus Japanese CA's and battlewagons. The globe attrits and then loses critical mass somewhere around Cebu or Palawan, ugggh!)
-
John Lansford
- Posts: 2664
- Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 12:40 am
RE: early war use of PP for allies
"For the first year of the war, your Dutch and British subs are one of your best weapons. The US "S" class subs are decent as well, but with the mostly dud Mk 14 torpedoes, the rest of your US subs are really only effective in the transport and Mine laying role."
I thought the S class subs used the older Mk10 torpedo than the Mk14, and since it hadn't been "upgraded" it was still effective.
I thought the S class subs used the older Mk10 torpedo than the Mk14, and since it hadn't been "upgraded" it was still effective.
-
USSAmerica
- Posts: 19211
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:32 am
- Location: Graham, NC, USA
- Contact:
RE: early war use of PP for allies
ORIGINAL: John Lansford
"For the first year of the war, your Dutch and British subs are one of your best weapons. The US "S" class subs are decent as well, but with the mostly dud Mk 14 torpedoes, the rest of your US subs are really only effective in the transport and Mine laying role."
I thought the S class subs used the older Mk10 torpedo than the Mk14, and since it hadn't been "upgraded" it was still effective.
John, that is correct. I guess I should have worded my statement better.
Mike
"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett
"They need more rum punch" - Me
Artwork by The Amazing Dixie
"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett
"They need more rum punch" - Me
Artwork by The Amazing Dixie
RE: early war use of PP for allies
ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
I suspect I was just lucky, but NEI air sank Ryujo and beat up a CA in the Java Sea;
I was able to get the same result in a PBEM. The dutch airforces on Java can put up a good defense, especially if you include some of the RAF and USAAF suqadrons out of Malaya and the Philippines (as historically occurred).
Still beginner, but air forces in Java can hurt a lot the japs AI.....Hudson had made so great works (30 AK sunk, and even a bomb on CVL Ryujo, but not much damaged seen on this occasion). But can't see how to reinforce (i mean, by sub seem ....long and fastidious), as KB shows as soon as a surface TF come from india or australia... Seems my dutch fellows of ABDA are going to die isolated and abbandonned....i'm not proud of it, but can't figure out what to do for the moment.
-
bradfordkay
- Posts: 8686
- Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:39 am
- Location: Olympia, WA
RE: early war use of PP for allies
There isn't much you can do as long as the KB is operating in those waters. I like to send resupply TFs into the Indian Ocean southwest of Java so that I can rush them in when the KB retires for resupply. It's about the only way to get any supplies in, unless you care to combine the RN and USN CVs to try to take on the KB (not something I recommend at this point of the war).
fair winds,
Brad
Brad
RE: early war use of PP for allies
ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
There isn't much you can do as long as the KB is operating in those waters. I like to send resupply TFs into the Indian Ocean southwest of Java so that I can rush them in when the KB retires for resupply. It's about the only way to get any supplies in, unless you care to combine the RN and USN CVs to try to take on the KB (not something I recommend at this point of the war).
Advice is good, but AI is strong at "guessing" or spotting my moves. ABDA fleet should not get anymore in java sea[:-] because CL Java and CA Houston already each receive a bomb from a betty (and i'me glad it wasn't torpedoes), even when south of Java Island...sound terrible, but i realy think it's nearly the end of DEI; i think AI as guet bored of my resistence (it's mid march 42, Batavia, Soerebaya still holding), there are 5 CV in the surrounding area (raids of 80 kates and vals, escorted by 56 Zeros, no match for my poor Brewster and Hawk, pilots are tired and with no much morale, but i can't imagine to put them in hollidays....i'll tried to send a Hurricane Sqdrn by ship to relieve them a bit and make attrition on KB planes).