Editing devices of Witp - A bit of help

[el cid again]

AE threads say AE has vastly changed the situation:

there are more slots, there is a lot less hard code associated with slots, and in many cases slots are soft controlled

Just the increase in numbers will greatly improve mod options

[traskott]

So, If I add an X squad at slot 256 or up, no problem should appear...isn't ? 

[el cid again]

In WITP Andrew and I were advised by Joe to stay in the stock ranges. He said almost all devices - and an amazing number of other slots - had hard code at some place or another related to them I keep infantry squads in the stock range - and the blank spaces between them. There are enough- there are unused, blank and essentially duplicated slots.

[traskott]

thank you again... [:)]

[JWE]

Buenos Dias. Yes, it’s a good idea to keep the stock Devices where they are. Some cannot be tweaked, because they are used by the code for specific purposes.

But so long as you have open slots, and you are not trying to use them for “special purpose” units, they are available for mods.

J

[Dili]

Hmm what a about production, i remember that above 528 slots there will not be any production available. Also there is the side restriction, axis land devices go to 314 if they want to be produced and allies till 528. Am i remembering right?

[el cid again]

Sounds right. High numbered devices should be restricted to ones that don't produce - e.g. very old ones or one offs. I use the one Schneider rail gun and the prototype 41 cm CD gun (used on land by IJA at Houtou Fort) in these slots - since there is only one of each and no need to get any more.

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Hmm what a about production, i remember that above 528 slots there will not be any production available. Also there is the side restriction, axis land devices go to 314 if they want to be produced and allies till 528. Am i remembering right?

Hmmm, I'm doing a Alternate History mod where there are a number of devices from 550 on upwards that come as replacements for Japanese equipment, such as Soviet 85mm AA guns replacing 75mm ones, or 120mm mortars replacing 90mm mortars. The LCUs get enough devices to replace their equipment after the availability date is reached, in the same way as in stock 14 cm CD guns replace 12 cm CD guns, or Type 97 tanks replace Type 89A tanks. I can't say with any certainty that they get enough replacements for stuff lost in combat; those devices come in after 6/42, and I've restarted the game several times from December 7, 1941 due to a number of issues, but the devices work in combat; I've tested that in a modified Tutorial scenario.

[Dili]

Can you confirm they are produced? It wasnt clear.

[el cid again]

These weapons can be produced - and should be - but not in the high slots - where there is no production or replacements. However - there are cases where devices get dumped into these pools - if some unit upgrades - so rarely a unit might draw from them. You cannot depend on it - and it is best not to try. It is certainly inadequate to any significant requirement.

[mikemike]

I've made a few screen copies in one of my older test games (I gave this game up in 9/42 due to an aircraft upgrade definition blooper).

This is the relevant part of the pools listing:

[mikemike]

This is what a Special Base unit looks like with these devices:

[mikemike]

This is the Imperial Guards Division after combat in Burma:

[mikemike]

These devices all came in either as replacement for devices already deployed in units on the map or as equipment for freshly produced units. I don't know if they cost armaments points, this was long before WitpTracker or Witpdecoder, but they usually repair when damaged. I can't say with certainty if destroyed devices are replaced from the pools, but they certainly seem to pass through the pools when they first appear. All the listed devices (starting with the 120 mm mortar in the pools list) are in slots 550 or higher.

[Dili]

Thanks. Some questions.

1-Shouldn't be a build rate differnt of zero in first image?

2-did you put any build rate in editor?

3-Theses devices are new or are upgrades of already existing devices?


I think the only way to know is if they are being build is for example to check if the 120mm Mortar gets more than 4 in pool( i am implying that it not gets updated, so there aren't units replacing them and sending them back to pool and no units disbanded.

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thanks. Some questions.

1-Shouldn't be a build rate differnt of zero in first image?

2-did you put any build rate in editor?

3-Theses devices are new or are upgrades of already existing devices?


I think the only way to know is if they are being build is for example to check if the 120mm Mortar gets more than 4 in pool( i am implying that it not gets updated, so there aren't units replacing them and sending them back to pool and no units disbanded.

to 1: The Build Rate is what you define in the editor for the device. If it is Japanese and is produced by on-map factories, it has a build rate of zero.

to 2: No, all these devices (at least in the iteration of my mod that these hardcopies come from) have a build rate and a pool of zero at start of game.

to 3: The devices you see in the hardcopies are all upgrades of existing devices. Maybe that is the reason why these devices behave differently than expected. For instance, the Japanese 75 mm AA gun upgrades to the 85 mm KS-12 A gun in 6/42. From then on, KS-12s are replacing 75 mm AA guns in all units that have them, successively, depending on supply situation, and other conditions. The "Used from Pool" number climbs during this process, and the "Now in Pool" number changes almost any turn. It certainly looks like these devices are being produced in the normal manner, but I can't prove that they cost the usual HI, manpower and armaments points.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: traskott

I'm lost [X(][X(].



Ok. I'll try to add Axis Infantry Squad wherever I can [:D] and test what happened.

CHS155 - on which RHS was founded - had lots of out of range devices. Far too long into the project, it became apparent that this was less than wise. I privately wrote Andrew - and he replied he had just independently come to the same conclusion. Then Joe - who originally was my CHS "supervisor" and moved over to programming for Matrix - advised us in very strong terms to convert back to stock slots. It took a lot of work - but we were rewarded with much better behavior of the program. Joe advised us there is an unbelievable amount of specific structure in the code - and even if something works for one routine does not mean it works for all routines. Many times you will not be able to tell code is not working with an out of range device - since it will ignore it and nothing will happen - and you cannot tell if this is because you failed a test - or had a low die roll - or because it never works. And if it works in some other routine, you may incorrectly think it is "working" - when it is still being ignored by the routine that only looks in a certain range for what it is after. Since there is no critical shortage of squads - there are squads not used at all - there are empty slots - and there are squads with identical values - the option exists to modify the data in the right range - and that is the solution that is practical: it will work and reliably so. If you want a new squad - look for one that isn't used at all or an empty slot - or combine two existing squads - to create your slot.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: mikemike

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thanks. Some questions.

1-Shouldn't be a build rate differnt of zero in first image?

2-did you put any build rate in editor?

3-Theses devices are new or are upgrades of already existing devices?


I think the only way to know is if they are being build is for example to check if the 120mm Mortar gets more than 4 in pool( i am implying that it not gets updated, so there aren't units replacing them and sending them back to pool and no units disbanded.

to 1: The Build Rate is what you define in the editor for the device. If it is Japanese and is produced by on-map factories, it has a build rate of zero.

to 2: No, all these devices (at least in the iteration of my mod that these hardcopies come from) have a build rate and a pool of zero at start of game.

to 3: The devices you see in the hardcopies are all upgrades of existing devices. Maybe that is the reason why these devices behave differently than expected. For instance, the Japanese 75 mm AA gun upgrades to the 85 mm KS-12 A gun in 6/42. From then on, KS-12s are replacing 75 mm AA guns in all units that have them, successively, depending on supply situation, and other conditions. The "Used from Pool" number climbs during this process, and the "Now in Pool" number changes almost any turn. It certainly looks like these devices are being produced in the normal manner, but I can't prove that they cost the usual HI, manpower and armaments points.

The player reports seem not to be right in many cases. For example, you cannot believe the aircraft used from pool data. It 'resets' all the time - and it ignores data before the reset. A "minus" means "we destroyed that many planes because the pool was too large and you didn't use any yesterday" while a "plus" means "we issue that many as replacements since the last reset" approximately. It is certain that any change from plus to minus ignores the previous total instead of incorporating it. But it also appears that the plus data resets for other reasons - so you will show 19 used when you have really used 110 - and only the gods of programming understand why?

[Dili]

@ mikemike

1-Didnt know. Thanks
2-ok
3-Interesting as an update they might build then

@ el cid

Maybe the list is not reliable but i never noticed that. But if your units get the devices there is no way around it, they are being produced. For now it appears that at least if the devices are updates of existing devices in >550 are produced. Maybe the engine thinks them as the original slot.
Or maybe we have been wrong and they produce after all.

[el cid again]

One playtester wrote to me that this is not the case - that sometimes a pool can get a number of things that appear to be production when certain events happen to units using the device - such as an upgrade. I think he is right at least for aircraft - if you upgrade to a different plane you don't lose the ones you had before - they dump into the pool instead. I had wondered why certain devices in the range above where production is possible - and with no production or replacements set - still sometimes "worked"??? - and he replied that it was because some unit had dumped the device into the pool.

Another effect is that - in the case of Japan or Axis devices - where production is a factor - it appears you virtually (or even actually) never get the production at the rate listed in the reports. That is - if you have a capacity of 30 Zeros a month - you do not really geet 30 Zeros a month - and the amount you do get may even be zero - depending on a host of conditions. I think many comments imply people thing you get 360 planes a year if set at 30 per month - but it is not the case. You need HI points, engines, adequate supplies, lack of damage - and apparently other kinds of production can "compete" or "vote" for the HI points you need - so the more there is of other things - the less you will get. I am not entirely complaining about this - it is crudely correct - just pointing it out.

Since the program is not documented we have little idea how it really behaves. Even a fully documented program does not behave as its creaters intended - but usually it comes close. When there is no documentation worthy of the name, you have no way to know what is happening except testing and "educated guesses" - in the context of whatever anyone can see in the code and translate and describe. With complex programs - such understandings are always partial. Professional (e.g. Joe) always use very qualified language when they say something - things like "as far as I understand" and "possibly" and "if there is no other routine using this data" - or sometimes "probably" - but almost never "black or white, absolutely."