ORIGINAL: Orm
The only thing that worries me with this strategy is the abort. And then we played that a pilot interned by the russians was removed from the game.
Since the rule is: (My bold markings)
19.5.1 Eastern Poland
Any Allied (except Soviet) units there are destroyed.They are removed from the game (internment) until Germany and the USSR are at war, at which point they may be added to the Commonwealth force pool if the Commonwealth player so desires.
-Orm
No, the interned pilot is not destroyed, if the plane aborts to Eastern Poland and Eastern Poland is controlled by the USSR, the Polish Pilot is interned by the USSR, and may be added to the CW pilots when the USSR comes to war with Germany (as per the rule you quoted).
This said, aborting to a neutral minor country is better, but is there a neutral minor country in range from the place where the Polish Air Force will engage the Germans ? I doubt it, so I prefer rebasing them immediately to a neutral Minor Country for the immediate gain of 2 pilots. The CW desperatly needs more pilots to pilot its 4 unpiloted bombers.
The interoperation of the rules from the rulebook is correct by Orm, the reason Froonp also is correct is the QA:
[Clarification. Polish air units and their pilots are interned if they are in eastern Poland when the USSR occupies it - Dec. 29, 2007.]
An update of the rulebook would be nice.
It’s possible to land the Polish FTR2 in Lithuania after a dogfight over Warsaw as along as the USSR has not taken Eastern Poland. But it it legal? It's not a rebase.
Option 58: (Internment) A minor country aircraft unit can rebase into a neutral minor country. An aircraft unit that does that is destroyed. (PiF option 28: but the pilot survives).
ORIGINAL: peskpesk
It’s possible to land the Polish FTR2 in Lithuania after a dogfight over Warsaw as along as the USSR has not taken Eastern Poland. But it it legal? It's not a rebase.
Option 58: (Internment) A minor country aircraft unit can rebase into a neutral minor country. An aircraft unit that does that is destroyed. (PiF option 28: but the pilot survives).
I would say it is, it is in the spirit of the Internemt rule.
I want to add here that I believe we should have as many different Polish defenses as possible. The conquest of Poland is likely to be hammered by the players, who will try again and again to position the Germans, "just so" to crush Poland quickly. Most war games have players designing the 'ideal' starting position to optimize their gains in the first few turns (I do this[8D]).
By having 1 or 2 dozen rather different defenses for the Poles, I hope to frustrate players who try to achieve "the perfect German setup leading to immediate conquest of Poland" and require them to settle for a German setup that usually works well, depending on which set up the AIO selects.
There are nearly a dozen already. Although some are only practicle in certain situations (GE overloading the North, or South, or France 1st). As long is the AI is smart enough to pick out the appropriate defense or at least eliminate the inappropriate ones you should be ok.
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
I want to add here that I believe we should have as many different Polish defenses as possible. The conquest of Poland is likely to be hammered by the players, who will try again and again to position the Germans, "just so" to crush Poland quickly. Most war games have players designing the 'ideal' starting position to optimize their gains in the first few turns (I do this[8D]).
By having 1 or 2 dozen rather different defenses for the Poles, I hope to frustrate players who try to achieve "the perfect German setup leading to immediate conquest of Poland" and require them to settle for a German setup that usually works well, depending on which set up the AIO selects.
Some of these setups can have small variations on the same theme to make additional setups.
Maybe we need some more ideas for a basic setup.
How do you guys prefer to set up the poles?
-Orm
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
I want to add here that I believe we should have as many different Polish defenses as possible. The conquest of Poland is likely to be hammered by the players, who will try again and again to position the Germans, "just so" to crush Poland quickly. Most war games have players designing the 'ideal' starting position to optimize their gains in the first few turns (I do this[8D]).
By having 1 or 2 dozen rather different defenses for the Poles, I hope to frustrate players who try to achieve "the perfect German setup leading to immediate conquest of Poland" and require them to settle for a German setup that usually works well, depending on which set up the AIO selects.
Some of these setups can have small variations on the same theme to make additional setups.
Maybe we need some more ideas for a basic setup.
How do you guys prefer to set up the poles?
-Orm
I prefer to make Warsaw as difficult to take as possible.
- The units north of Warsaw can not be overrun. if they are permitted to do so, they can retreat to Lodz in the second impulse.
- The air units can be overrun, but they are out of the way from where Germany would like to go. If they are overrun, they rebase to Lithuania. If they are not overrun, they can support Warsaw on the 3rd impulse.
- The 3 point units can retreat to Lodz on the 2nd impulse if they are permitted to do so.
- I split the naval units just to give the Germans another hex to move into/overrun.
Bascially, I view the air and naval units as being of little value and I just want to keep the Germans busy in Poland for as long as possible. I've been known to have everyone take a pass action on the 4th and subsequent impulses, which is usually painless for the Allies to do (with a little planning) and can cause the Axis players to suddenly become very pale.
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I prefer to make Warsaw as difficult to take as possible.
- The units north of Warsaw can not be overrun. if they are permitted to do so, they can retreat to Lodz in the second impulse.
- The air units can be overrun, but they are out of the way from where Germany would like to go. If they are overrun, they rebase to Lithuania. If they are not overrun, they can support Warsaw on the 3rd impulse.
- The 3 point units can retreat to Lodz on the 2nd impulse if they are permitted to do so.
- I split the naval units just to give the Germans another hex to move into/overrun.
Bascially, I view the air and naval units as being of little value and I just want to keep the Germans busy in Poland for as long as possible. I've been known to have everyone take a pass action on the 4th and subsequent impulses, which is usually painless for the Allies to do (with a little planning) and can cause the Axis players to suddenly become very pale.
To me it looks like the Germans gets a two stack attack on Lodz during the suprise that gives a odds about 6-1 and 7-1 to 10-1 with ground support. Is that an intentional bait for the Germans?
-Orm
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
I prefer to make Warsaw as difficult to take as possible.
- The units north of Warsaw can not be overrun. if they are permitted to do so, they can retreat to Lodz in the second impulse.
- The air units can be overrun, but they are out of the way from where Germany would like to go. If they are overrun, they rebase to Lithuania. If they are not overrun, they can support Warsaw on the 3rd impulse.
- The 3 point units can retreat to Lodz on the 2nd impulse if they are permitted to do so.
- I split the naval units just to give the Germans another hex to move into/overrun.
Bascially, I view the air and naval units as being of little value and I just want to keep the Germans busy in Poland for as long as possible. I've been known to have everyone take a pass action on the 4th and subsequent impulses, which is usually painless for the Allies to do (with a little planning) and can cause the Axis players to suddenly become very pale.
To me it looks like the Germans gets a two stack attack on Lodz during the suprise that gives a odds about 6-1 and 7-1 to 10-1 with ground support. Is that an intentional bait for the Germans?
-Orm
No.
It is hard to prevent attacks on both Lodz and Warsaw. But if Germany is only going to take Lodz and leave the other defenders unmolested, then defending Warsaw is easier for the 3rd impulse. Germany can use 4 weak corps to freeze the 3 point Polish units, and maybe take out one of the 4 point units too, but that requires a lot of German units.
What I do not want to see is all the Stukas bombing Warsaw followed by a two hex attack on Warsaw during the surprise impulse when rivers do not have any effect. If Germany uses the Stukas on Lodz and then reorganizes them using a HQ so they can bomb Warsaw, well, then the Polish air force might get a chance to show what they are worth.
I also do not want to see any units overrun, which I think might be possible against 3 pointers in the clear.
I prefer to make Warsaw as difficult to take as possible.
- The units north of Warsaw can not be overrun. if they are permitted to do so, they can retreat to Lodz in the second impulse.
- The air units can be overrun, but they are out of the way from where Germany would like to go. If they are overrun, they rebase to Lithuania. If they are not overrun, they can support Warsaw on the 3rd impulse.
- The 3 point units can retreat to Lodz on the 2nd impulse if they are permitted to do so.
- I split the naval units just to give the Germans another hex to move into/overrun.
Bascially, I view the air and naval units as being of little value and I just want to keep the Germans busy in Poland for as long as possible. I've been known to have everyone take a pass action on the 4th and subsequent impulses, which is usually painless for the Allies to do (with a little planning) and can cause the Axis players to suddenly become very pale.
To me it looks like the Germans gets a two stack attack on Lodz during the suprise that gives a odds about 6-1 and 7-1 to 10-1 with ground support. Is that an intentional bait for the Germans?
-Orm
No.
It is hard to prevent attacks on both Lodz and Warsaw. But if Germany is only going to take Lodz and leave the other defenders unmolested, then defending Warsaw is easier for the 3rd impulse. Germany can use 4 weak corps to freeze the 3 point Polish units, and maybe take out one of the 4 point units too, but that requires a lot of German units.
What I do not want to see is all the Stukas bombing Warsaw followed by a two hex attack on Warsaw during the surprise impulse when rivers do not have any effect. If Germany uses the Stukas on Lodz and then reorganizes them using a HQ so they can bomb Warsaw, well, then the Polish air force might get a chance to show what they are worth.
I also do not want to see any units overrun, which I think might be possible against 3 pointers in the clear.
I know that in my 3 games of CWF, I found that it is very difficult to defend Poland against a large force out of East Prussia. I could not find any way to stop the Germans from getting a strong attack on Warsaw in the surprise impulse. The ARM and Mech can be in East Prussia, since it is specifically identified as part of the German home nation.
I do admit that I used the 1d10 table, not 2d10, but I could usually get more than 3-1. Granted, this is the total of my WiF FE experience, so maybe I am missing something. My previous WiF experience is so long ago that I don't recall any lessons from it, and anyway, it was with an older edition (it still had separate 1-combat factor HQ units, I think it was 5th ed.).
If the Germans had the ARM/MECH in East Prussia, of all the pictured setups, only the iron ring and ground strike defenses would not give them a 2-hex attack in the surprise impulse. Even then, the Germans could get a strong attack on the outlying hexes and set up for a 3rd impulse attack on Warsaw.
I suspect that the other defenses would only be useful if Germany does not follow the East Prussia setup. Do the more experienced people have a different idea?
I also do not want to see any units overrun, which I think might be possible against 3 pointers in the clear.
Germanys strongest possible stack is two 8 strength armor and one 4 strength ART for a total of 20 points. If you play with 1d10 Germany cannot overrun a polish 3 pointer unless it is flipped and out of supply.
When you play with 2d10 you need to get to +16 to get the overrun. The 20 attack stack gives you +12, 2 armor for an extra +2 leaves you 2 points short of a overrun. However if the defending unit is disrupted you get another +2 bonus for that and can then overrun the 3 strength defender.
And all of this goes out the window if Germany plays his offensive chit for then he can do just about anything he wishes in Poland. To the great joy of the allies that has one less offensive to be scared of.
-Orm
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
the best way to set up the Poles is to base the whole thing on where the Germans have what. It is the most fun when the Germans divert some forces to DoW Yugoslavia, or even better try for a France First, but that strategy is increasingly rare I think in ftf play. With MWiF I think it will make a comeback. A smart German will also commit several of the most mobile corps with at least one MECH/ARM to Denmark to keep the British from landing in force in Frederikshavn.
If they are heavy in East Prussia, sacrificing a unit in Danzig might divert that group for the first impulse, because the Germans will probably want to get the overrun rolls on the two Polish ships.
Lodz is the more difficult city to take due to the extra factory stack...the above set-up gives a two-hex attack on it while it has only one defender, so I would like this set-up as the Germans. You also have to take Lodz to conquer the country, not just Warsaw.
The Germans can only get an 18 point stack for an overrun, since ART can't participate; only the 2-6 tank destroyer is motorized and can participate. If the Germans draw both 8 point ARM (25% chance) they can get to 18 (but only 80% chance of drawing the 2-6 gun). So they can't overrun anything aside from the Polish division....unless they can ground-strike a unit that is out of supply after some manuevering.
A lot can happen in S/O 39...I've never thought of trying to pass on the first turn, I like that, but that might not work for the Chinese if the sun has been shining too much in China. With standard RaW Vichy rules, a lot of German players won't care if they finish Poland on the first turn; what's important is casualties. So I like to maximize the defense of Lodz, the strongest Polish hex. But since HQs and divs are so useful in WiF, I put them in the Pripets to join the CW army in 41 or 42, and the aircraft up near Vilna or somewhere else out of reach of the German set-up. They represent 4 BPs for the CW, and I like to maximize CW lending to France on the second and third turns, so those two pilots are important. I like to fly the CW ATR to re-org a TRS on occasion on the first CW impulse along with a port-strike on Kiel, so it is important to find the planes a really out of the way place to stay until the 2nd Allied impulse, like maybe on the HQ in the swamp. With MWiF divisions created from units the CW won't miss, like the weaker Indian INF corps, the Polish division is a lot less important and I'd put that in Lodz so the Germans need a /S result to take the hex.
Without the HQ and division, the Poles have only two units left over. So I put them either with one in Danzig and one helping to screen Lodz, or if the Germans are weak in Czechosovakia, I put them both in Katowice to possibly get lucky and block the transport of the resources in Poland, or lucky in terms of holding some German units in the south without enough movement to get up to the Warsaw/Lodz area in any rainy weather. Katowice can wrench the German plans the best I think.
I don't think a German player doing repeated attacks on the AI's set-up of Poland could find the perfect set-up to wipe-out Poland. If you use the whole Luftwaffe and 90% of the ground units and the weather is clear for three impulses, Poland is toast with minimal casualties (against that kind of German set-up I would forget Katowice and Danzig and just prevent a first impulse attack on Warsaw). Maybe even in only two impulses. If the Germans use less than that or the weather goes bad, then things get more interesting. But the biggest two variables are the German commitment and the weather, not the Polish set-up, in my opinion.
The Germans can only get an 18 point stack for an overrun, since ART can't participate; only the 2-6 tank destroyer is motorized and can participate. If the Germans draw both 8 point ARM (25% chance) they can get to 18 (but only 80% chance of drawing the 2-6 gun). So they can't overrun anything aside from the Polish division....unless they can ground-strike a unit that is out of supply after some manuevering.
Cut from Raw
11.11.6 Overruns
Overrunning land units
At least one of the overrunning units must be an ARM, MECH or HQ-A unit.
If the defending units include an ARM or HQ-A unit (AsA option 3: or anti-tank unit), you can only overrun them if you have more ARM or HQ-A units.
If the defending units do not include an ARM or HQ-A unit (AsA option 3: or anti-tank unit) but do include a MECH unit, you can only overrun them if you have either:
- an ARM or HQ-A unit; or
- more MECH units.
So long as one unit has "blitz" capability the rest can be any unit with a land combat factor (and the stack has more "armor" than the defending stack).
-Orm
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
I also do not want to see any units overrun, which I think might be possible against 3 pointers in the clear.
Germanys strongest possible stack is two 8 strength armor and one 4 strength ART for a total of 20 points. If you play with 1d10 Germany cannot overrun a polish 3 pointer unless it is flipped and out of supply.
When you play with 2d10 you need to get to +16 to get the overrun. The 20 attack stack gives you +12, 2 armor for an extra +2 leaves you 2 points short of a overrun. However if the defending unit is disrupted you get another +2 bonus for that and can then overrun the 3 strength defender.
And all of this goes out the window if Germany plays his offensive chit for then he can do just about anything he wishes in Poland. To the great joy of the allies that has one less offensive to be scared of.
-Orm
So the conclusion for the AI is that 3 strength Polish units are safe to setup in the clear if 1-10 CRT is used. IF the 2D10 CRT is used all 3 strength Polish must be in a City, Forest, Mountain or Swamp hex.
The Germans can only get an 18 point stack for an overrun, since ART can't participate; only the 2-6 tank destroyer is motorized and can participate. If the Germans draw both 8 point ARM (25% chance) they can get to 18 (but only 80% chance of drawing the 2-6 gun). So they can't overrun anything aside from the Polish division....unless they can ground-strike a unit that is out of supply after some manuevering.
Cut from Raw
11.11.6 Overruns
Overrunning land units
At least one of the overrunning units must be an ARM, MECH or HQ-A unit.
If the defending units include an ARM or HQ-A unit (AsA option 3: or anti-tank unit), you can only overrun them if you have more ARM or HQ-A units.
If the defending units do not include an ARM or HQ-A unit (AsA option 3: or anti-tank unit) but do include a MECH unit, you can only overrun them if you have either:
- an ARM or HQ-A unit; or
- more MECH units.
So long as one unit has "blitz" capability the rest can be any unit with a land combat factor (and the stack has more "armor" than the defending stack).
-Orm
Ah, no 9 pointers in 1939 I see.
---
There is all this concern about the CW builds while defending Poland. Call me naive, but to my way of thinking the most important thing for Germany is time and anything that can be done to steal an impulse from Germany, should be done. What's better: to have an extra HQ to build for the CW and a couple of 'free' pilots, or to have France last an extra turn?
Yeah, Lodz has an extra factory but it also can be attacked from 4 hexes with no river protection. Warsaw only has a single factory but it has 3 hexsides of rivers. A partially failed attack on Warsaw, leaving attack hexes cluttered with disorganized units, can put a real damper on the next attack.
I prefer to make Warsaw as difficult to take as possible.
- The units north of Warsaw can not be overrun. if they are permitted to do so, they can retreat to Lodz in the second impulse.
- The air units can be overrun, but they are out of the way from where Germany would like to go. If they are overrun, they rebase to Lithuania. If they are not overrun, they can support Warsaw on the 3rd impulse.
- The 3 point units can retreat to Lodz on the 2nd impulse if they are permitted to do so.
- I split the naval units just to give the Germans another hex to move into/overrun.
Bascially, I view the air and naval units as being of little value and I just want to keep the Germans busy in Poland for as long as possible. I've been known to have everyone take a pass action on the 4th and subsequent impulses, which is usually painless for the Allies to do (with a little planning) and can cause the Axis players to suddenly become very pale.
To me it looks like the Germans gets a two stack attack on Lodz during the suprise that gives a odds about 6-1 and 7-1 to 10-1 with ground support. Is that an intentional bait for the Germans?
-Orm
No.
It is hard to prevent attacks on both Lodz and Warsaw. But if Germany is only going to take Lodz and leave the other defenders unmolested, then defending Warsaw is easier for the 3rd impulse. Germany can use 4 weak corps to freeze the 3 point Polish units, and maybe take out one of the 4 point units too, but that requires a lot of German units.
What I do not want to see is all the Stukas bombing Warsaw followed by a two hex attack on Warsaw during the surprise impulse when rivers do not have any effect. If Germany uses the Stukas on Lodz and then reorganizes them using a HQ so they can bomb Warsaw, well, then the Polish air force might get a chance to show what they are worth.
I also do not want to see any units overrun, which I think might be possible against 3 pointers in the clear.
Steve, nice defence. I will add it as Polish Capital Defence.
There is all this concern about the CW builds while defending Poland. Call me naive, but to my way of thinking the most important thing for Germany is time and anything that can be done to steal an impulse from Germany, should be done. What's better: to have an extra HQ to build for the CW and a couple of 'free' pilots, or to have France last an extra turn?
Yeah, Lodz has an extra factory but it also can be attacked from 4 hexes with no river protection. Warsaw only has a single factory but it has 3 hexsides of rivers. A partially failed attack on Warsaw, leaving attack hexes cluttered with disorganized units, can put a real damper on the next attack.
If the Germans commit enough forces (esp. planes & HQs) to the Polish campaign, they can pretty well mop up the Poles in one turn no matter what the Poles do, save for bad weather & a short turn.
Cut from Raw
11.11.6 Overruns
Overrunning land units
At least one of the overrunning units must be an ARM, MECH or HQ-A unit.
sigh. thanks Orm. someday I'll learn how to actually play this game. perhaps it was a ghost of WiF past that only motorized units can overrun, or a similar ghost that maybe tied overrun in with the /*B combat result or something, but I (and my opponents) have played for a long time that leg units couldn't participate in an overrun and never knew any unit stacked with an armored unit could do it.
I agree that a certain amount of BPs are always worth trading in for an impulse of the Axis schedule (the whole basis of successful Allied play in the early game), but don't find that this applies in 1939. With the USE chits, the Germans have a dis-incentive on attacking in the West in the two 39 turns. And the weather is so likely to go bad, and lead to Bad Things like Allies Support Attacked Minor, that it's no problem for the Germans to wait until spring for anything aside from subduing Poland.
The issue on the Polish units isn't the BPs; in fact they only get added to the CW force pool upon Ge<>USSR war, so the HQ always costs the CW 5 BPs later. It's just that unit has 2 re-org points, and in WiF that is priceless. And flying the Polish air planes is not very likely to gain anything except throwing out a potential 4 BPs.
It's true that Warsaw has three river hexsides. But I think the extra -1 on the 2d10 (and I think even the 1d10 too?) makes Lodz the stronger defensive hex. And since you need both to conquer the country (something easy to forget, esp. for newer players), I put the best units in Lodz, where that -1 gives you the best chance of disorganized attacking Germans. You have to take Lodz to get a good attack on Warsaw too, exposing all the non-river hexsides of Warsaw. I think any units sacrificed as a screen are best used to prohibit a good attack on Lodz on the first, and only guaranteed clear, impulse, but I still like the Katowice gambit much better, esp. if the German units in Czech. are slow ones.
I do like trading the division for the Lodz screen on the SW side, esp. if a smart German has deployed the heaviest in Silesia, ready for any Polish set-up. I'd probably do that when playing MWiF.
All this goes out the window with a German deployed for a France First. Note though that it is easy for the Germans to bluff this with Rundstedt and/or von Leeb and just a few extra corps (possibly the ones destined for Denmark later in the turn) and planes (those possibly only temporarily) in the West, esp. if they aren't attacking Yugoslavia; they still have enough to easily take out the Poles. I like to do that to help pull the French out of Algeria.
What will be great about MWiF is that it will be so simple to try out small variations on the opening few turns...
Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port. The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.
