PBEM skipping

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Sorry, Neverman, I must strongly disagree with your guess (AND it would ONLY be a guess) at this point. I cannot tell you that you are wrong simply because it's not there yet BUT I've played too many PBEM games, all of which suffer pace problems due to people being out of town, sick, etc. and simul execution would not have saved a minute in ANY of my games over the past years.

I can tell you from 1 game: CleverDevils2. This game would be sped up by simul phases since most players do their turns in less than a few hours and we have a 24 hour max turnaround. How do you see this has not being faster??

[eske]

There is one stone in the shoe regarding skipping diplomacy phase that would be possible to solve by true simultanious diplomacy - if done correct.
 
That is the advantage it is to know, if another MP before you in diplo-phase has skipped. You would then be able to DoW knowing no conflicting DoW is coming from the skipping nation. Examples: France skips - Austria can DoW Bavaria knowing France doesn't do the same. Russia skips - GB can DoW Denmark. Etc...
 
If - with simultanious diplo - noone knows who has skipped till all "missing" turns is in - noone has that advantage. In the above example Austria shouldn't know France is skipping till all "none skippers" has entered their turn and diplomacy is resolved.
 
I'm aware host may be forced to demand turns from nations, who is skipping. Either that is how it has to be, or host has the option to find out who is, once he has entered his own turn. (... or something).
 
 
Now, Marshall, I have absolutely no idea what obstacles, changing this very fundamental part of the game, may present. But from a players viewpoint it is more or less this simple: All players enter their turns, but nothing is reveiled or resolved till all turns are in. In effect the turns are simultanious. What is the purpose of forcing players to wait for each other in a special sequence ?
 
And even if the size of the time gain from a statistical point of view can be argued, it is certain it won't be negative or zero.
 
/eske

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: eske

There is one stone in the shoe regarding skipping diplomacy phase that would be possible to solve by true simultanious diplomacy - if done correct.

That is the advantage it is to know, if another MP before you in diplo-phase has skipped. You would then be able to DoW knowing no conflicting DoW is coming from the skipping nation. Examples: France skips - Austria can DoW Bavaria knowing France doesn't do the same. Russia skips - GB can DoW Denmark. Etc...

If - with simultanious diplo - noone knows who has skipped till all "missing" turns is in - noone has that advantage. In the above example Austria shouldn't know France is skipping till all "none skippers" has entered their turn and diplomacy is resolved.

I'm aware host may be forced to demand turns from nations, who is skipping. Either that is how it has to be, or host has the option to find out who is, once he has entered his own turn. (... or something).


Now, Marshall, I have absolutely no idea what obstacles, changing this very fundamental part of the game, may present. But from a players viewpoint it is more or less this simple: All players enter their turns, but nothing is reveiled or resolved till all turns are in. In effect the turns are simultanious. What is the purpose of forcing players to wait for each other in a special sequence ?

And even if the size of the time gain from a statistical point of view can be argued, it is certain it won't be negative or zero.

/eske

Are DOWs declared right away in the log? I thought they were saved until the end of the Dip Phase.

Regardless Simul play is a MUST if this game is to increase in play speed.

With a 24 hour turnaround, 7 players each taking the max turnaround time: 1 week for Dip Phase. Simul? 1 Day.

1/7th the time.

OK, now let's say that each player takes 3 hours to get their turn in (most unlikely, but for the sake of argument): 21 hours for Dip Phase. Simul? 3 hours.

1/7th the time.

No matter how you cut it it's 1/7th the time. I don't understand how Marshall can deny this simple math. Even if the players are all the way around the world 1/3rd is still a good speedup.

With or without simul sometimes people take vacations, etc BUT it's not like that is happening every phase of the game. The games I am in go months without anyone taking "time off" so I can't see how that can be used as an argument.

The only real arguments that are valid from Marshall are these:

1. It can't be done due to lack of code robustness.
2. It's very hard to do due to lack of code robustness.
3. I won't do it.

That's about it.

[Thresh]

Spoken like someone who's never played a game where the turns were simultaneous Neverman....

Todd

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: eske

There is one stone in the shoe regarding skipping diplomacy phase that would be possible to solve by true simultanious diplomacy - if done correct.

That is the advantage it is to know, if another MP before you in diplo-phase has skipped. You would then be able to DoW knowing no conflicting DoW is coming from the skipping nation. Examples: France skips - Austria can DoW Bavaria knowing France doesn't do the same. Russia skips - GB can DoW Denmark. Etc...

If - with simultanious diplo - noone knows who has skipped till all "missing" turns is in - noone has that advantage. In the above example Austria shouldn't know France is skipping till all "none skippers" has entered their turn and diplomacy is resolved.

I'm aware host may be forced to demand turns from nations, who is skipping. Either that is how it has to be, or host has the option to find out who is, once he has entered his own turn. (... or something).


Now, Marshall, I have absolutely no idea what obstacles, changing this very fundamental part of the game, may present. But from a players viewpoint it is more or less this simple: All players enter their turns, but nothing is reveiled or resolved till all turns are in. In effect the turns are simultanious. What is the purpose of forcing players to wait for each other in a special sequence ?

And even if the size of the time gain from a statistical point of view can be argued, it is certain it won't be negative or zero.

/eske

EXCELLENT point!

Now, the problem is that if the player has to put up a skipped entry in the phase, then there's no point in having the skipping at all; everything just reverts back to the way it was before, except the player spends 10 seconds instead of a minute or two doing diplo. In the end, it makes no difference (without simultaneous diplo).

So, Marshall, I think this changes my opinion: Simultaneous diplomacy is essential if phase skipping of diplomacy is allowed.

NOTE: This gotcha does not apply to reinforcement or naval phases, I think. In those cases, whether one skips the phase or simply does no movement, it doesn't matter to those who follow; they don't gain any pertinent information by knowing that the phase was skipped.

ALTERNATE: If skipping diplo were allowed, but also simple declarations of war COULD be included (with the "skipped" phase), then this objection no longer presents an obstacle. But, that's asking a lot in one tiny dialog box. So, I don't think this alternative is a very good idea. But, I added it for completeness.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Are DOWs declared right away in the log? I thought they were saved until the end of the Dip Phase.

It doesn't matter; you missed his main point.

The problem is that each player (now) gets seven PBM files for the phase. The later-phasing players do not currently get to see the results until the last player has taken his phase.

BUT, if diplo-skipping is implemented, then there will NOT be seven PBM files any more; the people who skipped the phase do not provide one any more. Thus, the person going after them knows without question that the earlier party did not declare war on any nation (at a minimum, but this is the biggest issue).

For example, Austria goes before France. It is January, 1805. France (for some reason) skips his diplo phase. Now, since Austria now knows that France did not submit a turn file, he knows France did not declare war on any major power or minor country. Thus, it is perfectly safe (this turn) to declare war on Bavaria, Modena, and Romagna, since France cannot have declared support.

However, typing this out brings up a different point, Marshall (thanks, Neverman!):

IF you fully honor all previously set entries in the diplomatic control tables (i.e. the values that were there at the end of the previous month), then France could indeed declare war on Austria (by way of a check box in the "minors to support" section). Except, this does not work in the very first month (because nobody could have set the values by this time).

So, in the end, without simultaneous phasing, you can still implement this, provided you do not allow phase skipping in the very first diplomacy phase (as if someone would want to!)

Clear as mud?

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Thresh

Spoken like someone who's never played a game where the turns were simultaneous Neverman....

Todd

It's worse if you have ever written code to handle simultaneous turns. Fortunately, this game is already segmented by nature, so some of the groundwork should already be in place (in fact, it seems to be partially done for diplomacy already, as Neverman and others have pointed out.)

[eske]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer
...
For example, Austria goes before France. It is January, 1805. France (for some reason) skips his diplo phase. Now, since Austria now knows that France did not submit a turn file, he knows France did not declare war on any major power or minor country. Thus, it is perfectly safe (this turn) to declare war on Bavaria, Modena, and Romagna, since France cannot have declared support.
...

To be precise support is declared by checking a box on the 'Diplomatic relations' screen. Can be done in advance. A skipped diplo phase doesn't reviel that setting. So its not a safe DoW.
But suppose there is an enforced peace between France and Austria. Bavaria is neutral. Double DoWs is automatically withdrawn, 1 PP wasted. If France skips in this situation Austria can safely DoW Bavaria.
Another scenario: Bavaria is Ally to Austria. Austria wants to support it (not letting France get it without fighting back, getting a full bavarian corps ...). France skips. Now Austria knows he wont get into a war with France this month and may opt to use this month to DoW minors, not likely to be France controlled thus not running into a french support.

Most likely result is France never skips diplo - even if he does nothing in them.

/eske

[MarshallEllis]

ORIGINAL: eske

ORIGINAL: Jimmer
...
For example, Austria goes before France. It is January, 1805. France (for some reason) skips his diplo phase. Now, since Austria now knows that France did not submit a turn file, he knows France did not declare war on any major power or minor country. Thus, it is perfectly safe (this turn) to declare war on Bavaria, Modena, and Romagna, since France cannot have declared support.
...

To be precise support is declared by checking a box on the 'Diplomatic relations' screen. Can be done in advance. A skipped diplo phase doesn't reviel that setting. So its not a safe DoW.
But suppose there is an enforced peace between France and Austria. Bavaria is neutral. Double DoWs is automatically withdrawn, 1 PP wasted. If France skips in this situation Austria can safely DoW Bavaria.
Another scenario: Bavaria is Ally to Austria. Austria wants to support it (not letting France get it without fighting back, getting a full bavarian corps ...). France skips. Now Austria knows he wont get into a war with France this month and may opt to use this month to DoW minors, not likely to be France controlled thus not running into a french support.

Most likely result is France never skips diplo - even if he does nothing in them.

/eske

This is the best point about DOWs. Support would still be checked so they are not safe DOWs.

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Are DOWs declared right away in the log? I thought they were saved until the end of the Dip Phase.

It doesn't matter; you missed his main point.

The problem is that each player (now) gets seven PBM files for the phase. The later-phasing players do not currently get to see the results until the last player has taken his phase.

BUT, if diplo-skipping is implemented, then there will NOT be seven PBM files any more; the people who skipped the phase do not provide one any more. Thus, the person going after them knows without question that the earlier party did not declare war on any nation (at a minimum, but this is the biggest issue).

For example, Austria goes before France. It is January, 1805. France (for some reason) skips his diplo phase. Now, since Austria now knows that France did not submit a turn file, he knows France did not declare war on any major power or minor country. Thus, it is perfectly safe (this turn) to declare war on Bavaria, Modena, and Romagna, since France cannot have declared support.

However, typing this out brings up a different point, Marshall (thanks, Neverman!):

IF you fully honor all previously set entries in the diplomatic control tables (i.e. the values that were there at the end of the previous month), then France could indeed declare war on Austria (by way of a check box in the "minors to support" section). Except, this does not work in the very first month (because nobody could have set the values by this time).

So, in the end, without simultaneous phasing, you can still implement this, provided you do not allow phase skipping in the very first diplomacy phase (as if someone would want to!)

Clear as mud?

No it's not, why does skipping phases have to be public knowledge before the phase? Yes, there will only be so many "files" (none of this would be a problem in IP play of course) but I'm sure there is a possible workaround to avoid this. Matrix should bundle the source code with this game.

[MarshallEllis]

There will be NO public knowledge of the skipping.
 
Someone could calculate who did not submit a file BUT with the support boxes checkd then that could protect someone from abusing this unless I am missing something???
 
Using your example, Jimmer, Austria does not know if France has chosen to support Bavaria against Austria.
 
 

[eske]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

There will be NO public knowledge of the skipping.

Someone could calculate who did not submit a file BUT with the support boxes checkd then that could protect someone from abusing this unless I am missing something???

Using your example, Jimmer, Austria does not know if France has chosen to support Bavaria against Austria.

Sorry Marshall, but it is not that clear cut.

Talking diplomacyphase:
A player would know who, of the nations doing diplomacy before hinself, did skip the phase. Simply by knowing which files he downloaded and which he did not. I don't see how that can be avoided.

That player would know before doing his own diplomacy, that the skipping nation didn't declare any wars, didn't alter state of any minors, didn't influence any minors, didn't make or break any alliances ... (can't think of more).

He wouldn't know, if there had been no skip. So he does get an advantage because another player skipped diplomacy phase ahead of him!

The support minor checkbox doesn't counter that, sorry.

But a lot of the time this knowledge is probably not very important, so don't remove the possibilty bacause of this. My point is only, that this 'stone in the shoe' will go away with true simultaneus diplomacy.

/eske

[NeverMan]

ekse,

This is assuming that the player knows everyone has turned their file in. I'm not sure how this is going to work so I guess it's possible if it's done the wrong way.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: eske
...

This is the best point about DOWs. Support would still be checked so they are not safe DOWs.

I agree completely. Good points, Eske.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
No it's not, why does skipping phases have to be public knowledge before the phase? Yes, there will only be so many "files" (none of this would be a problem in IP play of course) but I'm sure there is a possible workaround to avoid this. ...

You are merging the idea of skipping with simultaneous phases. If separate, skipping would reveal things simply because player X, who skipped the phase, is now known to have not done anything. Remember that each player has to load an average of 6 files every phase (not counting combat files). If there are only five files up before Spain comes to his turn, then he knows someone was skipped, and can tell who by looking at the other five files.

I agree that if simultaneous phasing and skipping are both implemented, then it works that way. But, my post was specifically about having them separate.

I also agree that there's a good chance a workaround can be implemented, in case one can be done but not the other.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

There will be NO public knowledge of the skipping.

Someone could calculate who did not submit a file BUT with the support boxes checkd then that could protect someone from abusing this unless I am missing something???

Using your example, Jimmer, Austria does not know if France has chosen to support Bavaria against Austria.

Go with Eske's example. It's much better.

Yes, skipped phase files MUST be public knowledge (to those later in the order). See my reply to Neverman. It boils down to just knowing what your position is in the order. If you are supposed to be fourth, and your turn comes up after only 1 file, you know that two people were skipped (and most likely can determine which two easily -- they didn't produce phase files).

Now, the game COULD produce fake files to cloud this. But, that won't help either, because all of the fake files would come from the wrong player (since the player who is skipping the phase, by definition, is not producing the file).

Even if the host produced the files, the problem would still exist, because one could always just look and see who uploaded the files.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: eske
But a lot of the time this knowledge is probably not very important, so don't remove the possibilty bacause of this. My point is only, that this 'stone in the shoe' will go away with true simultaneus diplomacy.

/eske

Agreed. It would be best to implement them together, if possible.

BUT, that doesn't mean reinforcement and naval can have skipping turned on.

Remember, though: Reinforcement must have GB and France go at the end, and separate from the simultaneous others.

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
No it's not, why does skipping phases have to be public knowledge before the phase? Yes, there will only be so many "files" (none of this would be a problem in IP play of course) but I'm sure there is a possible workaround to avoid this. ...

You are merging the idea of skipping with simultaneous phases. If separate, skipping would reveal things simply because player X, who skipped the phase, is now known to have not done anything. Remember that each player has to load an average of 6 files every phase (not counting combat files). If there are only five files up before Spain comes to his turn, then he knows someone was skipped, and can tell who by looking at the other five files.

I agree that if simultaneous phasing and skipping are both implemented, then it works that way. But, my post was specifically about having them separate.

I also agree that there's a good chance a workaround can be implemented, in case one can be done but not the other.

Yes, I was putting skipping and simul together.

[MarshallEllis]

Simul diplomacy is a can of worms and I don't think I can push it into 1.05 right now so should I withdraw skip in 1.05?
 
 
 

[Dancing Bear]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Simul diplomacy is a can of worms and I don't think I can push it into 1.05 right now so should I withdraw skip in 1.05?

Hi Marshall
please keep the skip in 1.05. Yes, you can tell when someone has skipped if you last in the order, but this does not have to be a problem. If a player is worried that an opponent will DOW on them or an ally because of a skipped turn, then that player does not have to use the feature.

I envision three scenarios were skipping would work well. The first is is for those pointless phases, like the Prussian naval turn or reinforcement turns when there are no reinforcements and a player is at peace.

The second would be when you are going to be away for a few days, and rather than slow up the game, a player decides to skip a turn.

The third is when everyone agrees that nothing is going to happen for a few months (i.e. some winters or periods of enforced peace), so to move the game along, all the players agree to skip a few phases until, lets say the next economic turn, then if nothing happens we all agree to skip a few more phases. The house agreement should go along with long periods of skipping.

The alternative is everyone plays every turn, whether at war and at peace, and the game drags out, and likely dies.

Please keep the skip feature in and let the players choose when to use it.

Keep thinking about the simul phases (my opinion is that the trades for increased game speed maybe worth it), but don't let this thinking delay the release of the skipping feature.