Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

[Mykal]

Well in all honesty, I dont rush to do things anymore either
I used to pump out about 3 or 4 uniforms a day but thats drifted of somewhat

So I guess I'm kinda of the same mind as you Gary
I am giving myself time to do other things, instead of just MF things
but not being here at all........... that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth

IMO there are around a half dozen to a dozen guy's that this community needs in order to keep things ticking over
until someone or some miracle can put the spark back into this title

I wont name them (but we all know who they are) dont want any Swelling Heads [:'(]

[Mykal]

ORIGINAL: Marauders

Mykal stated: MF update 2.3............. what update ?

Did nobody listen to the recent announcement; work on this title has finished
baring someone stepping in to save future progress ... what we have now is all were gonna have.

You are startin' ta sound like William 'Bill' Munny.

There were a few items that I was updating for 2.5 that didn't get into 2.2 because I was waiting on potential changes with the way the game handles playbooks and folders. Since we will not see 2.5, I am trying to get these and more into an update or expansion pack. That is what this thread is all about.

One never knows what the future holds.

well that quote is wasted on me Bud............ no idea who that is, so means nothing to me
on the other hand, I do get the point of this thread
and without insulting anyone, Its not for me
I wouldn't pay for any patch that was not an official patch

I'm more than happy to add in other peoples stuff which they make as modder's or 3rd party developers
when its offered free of charge and am always careful to thank them for what they have done
and in return I offer as much as I can back to the community.

that for me is as close as I'll ever come to paying for community made stuff...... period.

[Marauders]

well that quote is wasted on me Bud ... no idea who that is, so means nothing to me

"It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have." - Bill Munny (Clint Eastwood) Unforgiven

[Mykal]

That explains that then
I've never been a films and movie kinda guy with the exception of Arnie Movies (I have all of those)

[zowee77]

I followed this games's developement since 2001 and even purchased CFL 99 back in the day (This was prior to Matrix being involved). Todd I know that you are aware of this due to conversations we had back 7 years ago. The only real issue I ever had with the game was the fact that the ability to run the option was taken off the table. That almost killed any interest I had in the game due to the fact that it limited any real sense of modern football (Specifically college football) due to this fact. I wish David well and hopefully he will return at some point once he has a long deserved vacation. As far as paying for an update, to be honest unless the capability of running the option was brought back to the table I would not even consider paying for an update. I mean this as no disrespect to you it just really seems pointless to continue playing something that completely ignores a big portion of modern day football especially considering what now appears to be the case that the game in its current state is being ceased in developement.

[zowee77]

Just about all of the issues dealing with how the game simulates a football game have been noted before. A few of us on the beta team brought up even the smallest things, but only so much could be done to get everything in. Everything coded had an opportunity cost, so some things that were noted were not large enough to get worked in.

One thing to keep in mind is that Maximum Football was not originally designed to be a deep simulation. That doesn't mean that we should not have pushed to make it more realistic, it just means that we have to take what we can get from this version. Madden has been out 20 years, and Football Pro improved from version to version through FBPro 98 as well.

The sim engine was not supposed to be a major part of the game. It is a tool for game owners that do not want to run all of the games live. Maximum Football cannot match text sim games in that area, just as sim games can't show plays in 3D.

Football games are not simple to create. They are much more work and detail than a baseball game. There are many more rules and many more variables to keep track of. Those of us who really know the ins and outs of real world football can easily take apart any football game for what it lacks in realism. One must consider that not everyone looking to purchase a football game will need that much detail. Again, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get as much in as we can; it just means that there are limitations. After all, Redwolf wouldn't have needed a sliders project if games like Madden were great simulations out of the box.

In this case, I can only try to fix or update what I can actually open and work on. It would be great if we could get to the models, but so far, we cannot. We can do our best with what we have and clean up what we can to make the game a better representation of a game of football. It won't be perfection, but it may be a worthy goal nevertheless.

I don't know that I agree with your point of view on Football Pro. I think the game actually peaked with 95 or 96 myself. I know that 97 added the online function and that 98 improved on it but in my opinion the play editor in 97 (once patched) was actually better than 98 and Football Pro 99 would have been the end all football game if it had been allowed to be patched or FBPRO 2000 would have been allowed to be released. The physics engine when looking at the command hook ups in Football Pro 99 .ini file were quite humbling to even football games that are being designed to today's standards. Don''t forget however that David mentioned numerous times during developement that he kept the Football Pro manual around during the developement of Maximum Football. The selling point of the game was the flexability and the capability of modding the game to what one desired from stats to ratings and eventually a career mode which I know was not originally planned but was yet taken on and released as part of the final product. I cannot say I really agree with most of what you say above. The fact of the matter is the game was commercialized and sold as a completely flexible and moddable game with a powerful play editor that was, at the beginning at least, advertized at allowing you to design any formation or play that you wanted. Once the AI buggs started creaping in however, instead of fixing the AI problem the decision was made to start limiting the play editor and remove option play capabilities or logic etc. But I think to say that Maximum Football was not designed to be a deep simulation when you have the capability to modify and analyze many player stats and ratings within the database of the game, a play editor that even with limitations is still better than most commercial offerings, and a host of other stat and modification capabilities might be stretching it a bit.

[mudrick]

ORIGINAL: mbsports

I think the issue we're all running into is that Max FB is an approximation of a football simulation but the holes in it prevent it from being realistically called a football simulation.  I can point to a barrage of little but material issues right here -

• if you ever sim Canadian rules games check the first 10 plays of any game in the logs.  Chances are good you will see a fumble about 40-50% of the time.  Kind of a random thing because you may see that kind of thing 5% of the time in real life but there's no way it is anywhere near as predictable as it is in MaxFB. 
• You can't onside kick,
• the computer's clock management is Rod Marinelli esque
• the graphic models are locked down and quite honestly sub-par
• the crossbar and goal posts are inanimate objects seemingly - i've never seen anything bounce off em'
• the ball occasionally goes thru the uprights for 1 point not 3
• in a simmed game an INT is never returned for a TD,
• a Punt never returned for a TD
• a kick never returned for a TD
• a fumble never returned for a TD. 
• In the arcade style mode punt returns are too often returned for a score due to some of the innate behavior of saying "go this way" even when it doesn't make sense - no if/then/if not/then possiblities, a lack of the option which is one of the most prevalent offenses of all time
• The process of setting a depth chart is convoluted and automatically doing it results in quite frankly - wrong assignments<fullback>
• Positions in 8 man are out of wack where you can't make a LB a FB which is fairly common
• The computer randomly will create players during a season to fill spots
• the draft creates way too many players without human intervention
• there is no usable output on board without massive human intervention
• Ball doesn't bounce off of walls
• QB Trajectory is too consistent, low passes aren't whizzers and bombs don't loft enough.  Every
• the stats are saved in a format in the db that requires massive human intervention
• included playbooks aren't optimized to what the game has expanded into
• Positional reality is ignored - the NFL, AFL, NCAA, CFL, most High Schools, Amateur teams, indoor leagues.  The only league where I saw teams with the positions like those in Max FB was the BAFL.  Yes the only way to accurate display positions in Max FB is to use a British American Football League.  This is denial of reality, we call them DTs because they play DT in this day and era, when we refer to the player being a tight end we're talking about the position on the field that he most regularly plays and is positioned at per the league he plays in.  They use this for contracts so it is a real part of football and MaxFB has ignored it
• Multiple Lateral Passes behind the line - legal in every league I'm aware of... not possible in Max FB
• no trade engine per se, no contract engine, no cap engin

I just don't know how to express it in simple terms - the game is not football, it's an approximation of football and what it lacks has been compensated for to a tremendous degree by the community.  Now I'll pay for an update and I have no issue doing but can you look above and tell me that those issues don't hurt the marketability and future of any Max FB project.  Quite frankly it isn't football as the game is played in any league in the world.  I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but the limitations are just huge right now and faith in some of them getting fixed is nill.

There are actually more issues than you have mentioned. But you are correct. As far as kickoffs and punts not being returned for TD's.......did you just mean simmed games? Because I have seen punts and kickoffs returned for TD's on the screen. But it wasn't a sim.

[mbsports]

Oh I meant that they only occur in the on screen game - and they occur with a shocking regularity on the Canadian Field - I've been working on tweaking the play for KO coverage for months now trying to make it so that it isn't a sure TD 50% of the time.

Also it NEVER happens in simmed games.

Annoying glitch. I'm aware there are probably at least 10-15 issues that I just flat out didn't put in because I forgot about it until it pops up again.

[DarcyD]

I am new to this forum, however I purchased MF a little over a year ago. I have only positive things to say about this game. I started looking for a game that played by Canadian rules in the fashion of the brand of football I love the most. When I found this game I was elated! To be able to find a game that played Canadian rules and was customizable to make my own teams was an amazing find. I found the advantages to the game far outweighed any small glitches it may have. Although the graphics are are not the latest and greatest, I think back to some of the early PC games and game systems graphics, and the hours of enjoyment I had with graphics that are not even close to what MF has. I think it is more about the game experience than the latest graphics. (it's football it ain't spose'd to be pretty). My hat is off to the developer (we're not worthy) for bringing a game to market that is fun, customizable, plays Canadian brand football, and I play for hours at a stretch and never get bored of. Also a round of thanks to the people on this forum whose stadiums and cool uniforms are a welcome addition (yes I have downloaded many......)

[garysorrell]

Welcome to the board, DarcyD. In spite of our occasional grumblings, most of us that are here share your sentiments. Warts and all, MaxFB gives us what other games dont. I love the indoor game, cant get that anywhere else.

[Marauders]

[*]You can't onside kick,

I ask for commands for Deep, Squib, and Onside Kicks with a Left, Center, Right modifier for each. It didn't get in.

[*]the graphic models are locked down and quite honestly sub-par

The models are not that bad really other than having much too big feet. There are no thin receiver type models though, and there are some texture wrapping problems. This was something to be changed in 3.0.

[*]in a simmed game an INT is never returned for a TD,
[*]a Punt never returned for a TD
[*]a kick never returned for a TD
[*]a fumble never returned for a TD.

The sim game was never the major focus of the game. Getting a constants file for each league was something I pushed for quite a while that got in under the wire.

[*]The process of setting a depth chart is convoluted and automatically doing it results in quite frankly - wrong assignments<fullback>

The depth chart was a wreck, as it was developed with less specifics in mind. The changes made to differentiate the positions was done by request of the beta team and the community. Without going back to scratch, there were two methods of doing this: the way we have, and having specific depth charts at each position that didn't allow players to play at other positions. The latter would have been better if players could be placed in more than one depth chart, but that created some coding problems that time would not have permitted. What we have is a compromise of the old system and what would have been the best system. It works in most cases.

The team profiles are another issue. It would be nice to have the profile have some margin of freedom after the draft.

[*]Positions in 8 man are out of wack where you can't make a LB a FB which is fairly common

There isn't a designated TE either. We started getting into the 8-man game just prior to David's exodus.

[*]The computer randomly will create players during a season to fill spots

This is a hold over from the time when the game was more simple. Having enough positions to cover any holes in each depth chart position would make this moot.

[*]the draft creates way too many players without human intervention

I have brought this up many times, but it was not changed. It's a good idea to use JD's utility to put the top of the bell curve in primary stats areas for any position at the lower end of the stats that one will actually use. That makes a bunch of dud players, but it keeps the league from having all top end players at each position.

One may also note that the game tends to have the position relevant stats linked in capability. That means kickers will have KAC and KST that are close in number (e.g. 99,98 or 67,69, ...). I've tried to get that changed as well, but I don't think it was high on the list at the time. JD's utility works here as well, but both of these items really should have been fixed in the game.

[*]there is no usable output on board without massive human intervention
[*]the stats are saved in a format in the db that requires massive human intervention

FBPro had a similar problem, and Madden would be a mess without the MADCAT utility. The problem with Maximum Football is that the stats are coded in a way that makes them more difficult to process.

[*]Ball doesn't bounce off of walls

This was noted by the beta team.

[*]QB Trajectory is too consistent, low passes aren't whizzers and bombs don't loft enough.

I noted ball arc and trajectory as an issue. The game uses actual physics to get the ball where needed, but we don't see various types of throws like in football. This is a minor issue, but it was brought up.

[*]included playbooks aren't optimized to what the game has expanded into

It is suffice to state that I understand this issue and have made attempts to address it. The developer consistantly did not agree with my assessments.

[*]Positional reality is ignored - the NFL, AFL, NCAA, CFL, most High Schools, Amateur teams, indoor leagues. The only league where I saw teams with the positions like those in Max FB was the BAFL. Yes the only way to accurate display positions in Max FB is to use a British American Football League. This is denial of reality, we call them DTs because they play DT in this day and era, when we refer to the player being a tight end we're talking about the position on the field that he most regularly plays and is positioned at per the league he plays in. They use this for contracts so it is a real part of football and MaxFB has ignored it

I am not certain what you mean by ignored. Keep in mind that linemen are not always drafted to play one position. DB's are moved from corner to safety to nickel and back to corner. Linebackers move inside and out over their careers or play in one position in college and another in the pros.

I must state again that the depth chart positions are a compromise that would have been better designed from scratch, but there was not an opportunity to do such a major overhaul. David spent a lot of time as it was doing what was done in this area, and it is much better than it was for 1.3.

[*]Multiple Lateral Passes behind the line - legal in every league I'm aware of... not possible in Max FB

Mutiple laterals, reverses, and end arounds were discussed. It didn't get in. I believe David worried about how the defensive AI would react to these plays. I don't see a problem with the AI, but we didn't have a chance to test it.

[*]no trade engine per se, no contract engine, no cap engine

As David mentioned, he was considering a trade AI for 2.5. In my opinion, any trade AI either had to be really good or it would have been a debacle like the poor FBPro trade AI. Do it right, or don't do it.

I gave contract and cap information to David long ago, but it wasn't something ever considered for 2.x. It was always a feature considered for 3.0. I gave similar information to JD, but I don't know if anything has been done with it as an external utility.

This is similar to schedule creation. I have offered detailed information on schedules and have stated shown two methods of achieving better schedules. That didn't make it in either.

[*]The Option Play

I have brought this up so many times that David started to consider the option to be like Merlot for Miles in Sideways. I didn't believe adding a the option would be difficult. I have no idea what the resistance to doing this was. In my opinion, it would have been relatively simple to code and test.

I believe the problem here, and in other areas, is that this game was being developed by one person without any development staff. With other games, the development staff would bring up issues and solutions, the programmers would code it, and the beta testers would test it. In this case, the beta team was staffed with people very knowledgeable about football, but that staff was not a development team. That meant that the developer was also the development staff, graphics arts team, programming team, public relations team, and quality control specialists. Too many hats and too much control in the hands of one person can be a limitation on any project, and it adversely affected Maximum Football.

[Mykal]

I gave contract and cap information to David long ago, but it wasn't something ever considered for 2.x. It was always a feature considered for 3.0. I gave similar information to JD, but I don't know if anything has been done with it as an external utility.

would be interesting to know if JD ever managed to do anything with this

[Lucas718]

So essentially he left us a game full of holes that he has no intention of ever fixing.

[Old Coach]

Guys,
Yes MaxFB has limitations, problems, warts, unrully nose hair and other problems we can bring up. And yes, David could have done more with it. Even with all that I'm enjoying the hell out of playing this game. Gary's stadiums are great to use straight from download or to modify BMP's to suit your needs. I get a kick out of working with the PDS and with making new uniforms. Right now, I have 4 leagues that I play with solo or head to head- Best of 1940 College, 1948 NFL, 1964 College and a no specific year CFL. I'll play a through a couple "weeks" of games with a league and then move on to another one. That way I get a variety of gameplay. It's an interesting transition form the 1948 NFL to wide open CFL play. Right now, I'm playing with 1940 College and then I'll move on to 1948 NFL and play games up through the 7th week of that season. Next will be 5 weeks of the CFL season and then back around to my starting point, the 1964 College league. Actually, I'll probably finish the 1940 college league on this go round and replace it with either 1963 NFL, 1933 SEC, or 1958 SEC. Can't decide- I'm like a kid in the candy store with this game.

Old Coach

[simmer]

I am enjoying it as well.....If JD would return to us and finish his editor and if this would include the schedule maker, that would be great.

[DreamTeams]

ORIGINAL: Old Coach

- I'm like a kid in the candy store with this game.

Old Coach

Same here. Have a sole solo league and love it.

[Marauders]

As Old Coach said, the game has its pros and cons.&nbsp; All games do.
&nbsp;
The question is if we want to push forward or not.
&nbsp;
It would be great if JD would finish up the utilities, but the gang at Football Freaks are keeping him busy on the Madden project.

[garysorrell]

I'm just not sure what you want to do, when you say push ahead. I will continue to make stadiums, i've already made 41. I've also made over 100 uniforms.
Mykal, local8h, redwolf1....the stuff is all out there. What exactly are you talking about doing? The stuff I made is there for anyone to use. If someone wants to put it in some sort of 'pack' or 'addon' they can(My stuff, not speaking for anyone else).

[hack153]

What kind of add on / package ideas are you exactly having? I think it's a good idea, I just want to get more details.

Uniform packages, Stadium packages, Playbook packages, Roster packages, etc?

Is it going to be free? Cost?

[quixian]

ORIGINAL: garysorrell

I'm just not sure what you want to do, when you say push ahead. I will continue to make stadiums, i've already made 41. I've also made over 100 uniforms.
Mykal, local8h, redwolf1....the stuff is all out there. What exactly are you talking about doing? The stuff I made is there for anyone to use. If someone wants to put it in some sort of 'pack' or 'addon' they can(My stuff, not speaking for anyone else).

That's a good point, given the items that are readily available to the community free of charge by our community modders. I think in addition to some enhancements to things that we in the community have access to, Marauders means to include some tweaks that he is possibly capable of making without having to rely upon David's help with the source code. I'm not sure how much can be done, but I would welcome anything that fixes some of the bugs and shortcomings listed in this thread and others. It would be good to know of the potential price tag for an expansion and what would be the scope of the project.