2nd best WWII DD design

[Dora09]

No doubt that the Fletchers were fantastic. The Japanese 5" gun was great though and in some ways better than the US counterpart. For example the Japanese 5" DP gun outranged the US weapon by 4000 yards. The mount was the problem not allowing for 70+ elevation. That being said, the Shimakaze and the Yugumo class had 75 degree mounts. Not to mention, the 3.9"/65 DP gun mounted on the Akizuki class (and the Taiho) was an outstanding AA weapon. Plus, the Shimakaze could make 40+ knots[:)]

[niceguy2005]

But was the IJN fire control system good enough to take advantage of that range.  One has to look at the ship as an integrated system.

[Pistachio]

Just for the record - I brought up tanks only to make an analogy. Sorry if I pushed things OT.

[Dora09]

Agreed. A ship is more than just a gun etc. I brought up my examples to address a previous poster that the Japanese DDs lacked AA capacity. And while that is largely true with their 1930 designs, there were some (Yugumo, Akizuki, and the Shimakazi) that were on par with the Fletcher. Also keep in mind that many Japanese designs were quite good but used incorrectly, used in despiration, used by poorly trained crews, and often lead by incompetent commanders and these variables may have resulted in an artificially underestimation of their effectiveness

[Dora09]

And... I brought up the Shimakazi specifically because it had increadable specs and no one brought it up in this "best DD ever" thread. I found that shocking. Some have called it a "super destroyer" and yet it got no mention in the "best DD" discussion.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Dora09

And... I brought up the Shimakazi specifically because it had increadable specs and no one brought it up in this "best DD ever" thread. I found that shocking. Some have called it a "super destroyer" and yet it got no mention in the "best DD" discussion.

It was out on the bleeding edge, and led nowhere.

[Dora09]

Huh??

There was only one built because it put too much strain on the already strained Japanese production system, but if we are talking about the "best DD" design of WWII, then I think the Shimakazi should be considered. Japan's lack of industrial strength should not be held against her.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Dora09

Huh??

There was only one built because it put too much strain on the already strained Japanese production system, but if we are talking about the "best DD" design of WWII, then I think the Shimakazi should be considered. Japan's lack of industrial strength should not be held against her.

40 knots in a DD hull came at a cost.

[Dora09]

I haven't read anything about the toll the speed took on the hull, but i am not a DD expert. It seems that Shimakazi was hampered by the fact that there was only one out of 17 built, so because its performance was so remarkable it didn't fit in well with the current formations. However, if there we 17 of them, teamed up with the excellent Japanese CAs.. who knows. It is sort of like comparing the Me262 to the Mustang. Nobody would say that the Mustang was more capable than the Me262, but the Mustang was clearly more successful because 1. it was mainly used when the Allies already had the upperhand 2. they were built in larger numbers (and more economically freindly) and 3. (and more importantly) the Mustang was used appropriatly for the tasks in which it was built for. If you are talking about is one DD design beter than another then I would argue that the Shimakazi would give the Fletchers some good competition

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Apologies for blowing up at Americans, I'm sure they are not all the same as the lot I deal with via work, but you all pay for it.

1.    Fletcher class wasnt in service for your competition. Its great to compare a mid 42 design against 1941 or earlier ships.
What makes up your definition of the best design, AA, ASW, All round.

2.    How do you rate pre-Fletcher class DD?

3.    As the Wirraway-Ace explains, the US didnt go in for a small number of super ships-planes-tank but produced a large number of very good designs. This is why the Allies managed to whip the Axis forces despite Bismarks & Me262s & Panthers etc.

4.    US ships had the advantage of being part of a massive machine, they were outclassed in the DEI. It  might be interesting to see them in the numbers and situations forced upon other Navies.

Bismark was not a good design when compaired with iowa or yamato or even the north carolina's. even the british bbs were better than bismark.

[Dora09]

Not entirely true. Yeah, the Bismark was outclassed by the Yamato and Iowa, but at the time it was launched the Bismark was quite formitable, why else would the entire Royal Navy in the Atlantic commit to finding and sinking one ship?

[bobogoboom]

because it was a battleship roaming around the atlantic.
 
the allies didn't have access to the bismarks blueprints but it was a far inferior design to the american and ijn bbs.

[Dora09]

I agreed that it was not as good as Yamato and Iowa.
However the Bismark had to be better than the Kongos, Yamashiro and Ise class. It outranged many of the early British designs. As I said, it was formitable when it was launched. It (and Tirpitz) were unsuccessful mainly because the Germans really had no use for a BB. They could never build enough to match the UK and Germany's Naval stratagy relagated these ships to being large and expensive commerce raiders

[John Lansford]

I should hope that the Bismarck was superior to those ancient Japanese battleships.  None of the three you listed were built after 1925 and were deficient in many ways by 1941.  However, the Bismarck had a bad armor arrangement, inferior secondary armament, its guns were accurate initially but accuracy fell off in longer engagements, and her steering wasn't all that well protected.  USS North Carolina (a contemporary design) was better in all ways but speed, and the KGV's were only a little less capable even though they were on a much smaller displacement. 

Bismarck's reputation is a lot better than the reality.

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: Dora09

I agreed that it was not as good as Yamato and Iowa.
However the Bismark had to be better than the Kongos, Yamashiro and Ise class. It outranged many of the early British designs. As I said, it was formitable when it was launched. It (and Tirpitz) were unsuccessful mainly because the Germans really had no use for a BB. They could never build enough to match the UK and Germany's Naval stratagy relagated these ships to being large and expensive commerce raiders

i mean battleships designed and biuld after 1931.

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I should hope that the Bismarck was superior to those ancient Japanese battleships.  None of the three you listed were built after 1925 and were deficient in many ways by 1941.  However, the Bismarck had a bad armor arrangement, inferior secondary armament, its guns were accurate initially but accuracy fell off in longer engagements, and her steering wasn't all that well protected.  USS North Carolina (a contemporary design) was better in all ways but speed, and the KGV's were only a little less capable even though they were on a much smaller displacement. 

Bismarck's reputation is a lot better than the reality.

it was so feared because no one had any idea of its capabilities except the german. all the allies knew is that the germans had a large capital ship with large calibure guns. plus it was a battleship a crappy battleship raiding commerce and roaming your shipping lanes was a scarry proposition at the time.

[MightyPaladin]

Ugh, sherman (30 tons) v tiger (57 tons)


lets compare a heavy cruiser with a battleship, then complain about how trash the cruiser is because it can't win a straight up daytime slugging match. (re: the battleship's kinda fight)

anyway, Akatsuki class! Especially if its named "Hibiki" [:D]

[borner]

Great ship, but I am not sure in overall firepower and more importantly fire control. Plus, very small number built hurts, but seeing as i never stated that a consideration in the thread. However, was this class not later in the war and not around in 1942?

[borner]

I agree, but in 1940 I think Bismarkwas the best around. Perhaps the new US fast BB's would give her a run, and for sure the French if they ever had one of the new BB's operational.

[Dora09]

Yes the Shimakazi was launched in '43
The Yugumo class in '42