FiTE Concerns

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ColinWright
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Okay -- just for the sake of argument, we can grant that it works for 'Soviet Union 1941.' However, many, many scenarios do not have 'army-sized' units.

Think of Pearl Harbor. Was it just Kimmel and Short that were disordered? Or was it the whole thing - the planes parked wingtip-to-wingtip, the BBs lined up side-by-side without torpedo nets, the lack of CAP, and the men expecting nothing more than a peaceful Sunday morning? Their poor performance that day wasn't due to their proficiency. It was due to shock. It actually affects combat strength. Barbarossa was similar. It took time for the shock of the invasion to wear off - at all levels.

Shock would work well for Pearl Harbor; it doesn't follow that it describes what happened during Barbarossa.

For one thing, it wasn't a matter of units losing their ability to fight equally under all conditions, nor was it a matter of their being equally incapable of receiving and executing all types of orders at all times.

I just don't see the effects of shock as being particularly descriptive of what was taking place. It's like if you tried to model the recent economic collapse by assuming it had effects similar to that of a giant earthquake. Well, no doubt you could come up with a magnitude figure that would yield a similar net loss of wealth. However, the 'earthquake' paradigm wouldn't thereby become a particularly accurate description of what happened.


And even here, I would argue that those armies would do far better defending a fixed locality than they would if constantly forced to redeploy, etc. In other words, whilst one 1941-2 German might be worth ten 1941-2 Russians in mobile combat, that ratio would fall to something far less impressive if it was a matter of a struggle over a fixed point (see 'what went wrong at Stalingrad'). Does your scenario reflect that, or does it simply manage to work in spite of not reflecting that?

The Soviets are better equipped and organized for defense than offense. That doesn't change the reality that any early defense would be affected by the mass disorder the campaign started out with.

Like at Brest-Litovsk? In general, the Russians remained handicapped in certain specific types of situations right through 1944. In others, they were often formidable opponents right from the start.
As to disorder being less of a problem with small units, one can form a properly trained battalion far more quickly than one can form a properly formed division. Indeed, the most common flaw of poorly trained armies is their inability to maneuver and fight in large formations. A battalion occupies perhaps a square kilometer or two, and you can always send a runner to find out what is going on or where B Coy got to. This doesn't work when it's a division spread out over twenty kilometers. Then one has to have subordinate commanders who clearly understand the plan and know what to do when things go askew, communications that don't break down, etc.

Even at that level you have the issue of meddling. The division commander doesn't just issue orders to his regimental commanders and leave it to them. He micromanages the companies and even lower, sometimes overruling the orders of his subordinates. So his disorder can infect even the lowest organizations.

So? This isn't the dominant mechanism. The fact remains that the smaller the unit, the less liable it is to command and control problems. It is a repeatedly observed fact that the less well-trained an army, the greater difficulty it has in coordinating large-scale operations.

Now, for sure, there are some C&C situations that aren't truely the product of shock, and may need something else. You mentioned the British C&C. That was more of a cronic problem than due to a disruption of any sort. There is a wishlist item for an event effect that causes the C&C penalties of shock without the combat strength effects. But that wasn't the case for Barbarossa - they were shocked.

The effect of what you are pleased to call the 'shock' was far greater in the area of command and control than in actual combat performance. I believe I've noted some of the more glaring shortcomings.

To be brief, the problem wasn't that Battalion x couldn't fight. It is that Battalion x would either not get the word, get the word but the word would be to move somewhere already occupied by the Germans, or get the word and the word would be to repeat an utterly futile attack.

Negative shock above all affects combat ability. It can occasionally immobilize formations for a turn, but it certainly won't make them go off and do something actively stupid.

The Russian problem in 1941 was just the opposite. Their combat methods were also lacking, but their main problem was that their units generally were doing something that made little sense given an accurate understanding of the situation.

Now, it may well be impossible to simulate this. However, this does not make negative shock a good simulation of what was going on -- any more than one can accurately describe what most Americans are experiencing economically at the moment by describing events as a nation-wide 8.3 earthquake. No one's house has fallen down -- and Russian units weren't moving about intelligently but fighting badly. More the exact opposite.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Like at Brest-Litovsk? In general, the Russians remained handicapped in certain specific types of situations right through 1944. In others, they were often formidable opponents right from the start.

Like all across most of the frontier at the start. The fact that a few small sectors of the front gave a bit more resistance than the rest could be accounted for by nothing more than blind luck. The German assault wasn't uniform across the entire front - it would be stupid for it be so. It applied infiltration principles. So of course some sectors weren't initially overrun - rather they were overlapped by other penetrations. The Soviets were much weaker - in combat strength - at the start due to shock. And they only recovered their strength gradually over several weeks.
However, this does not make negative shock a good simulation of what was going on ...

If it produces results that are indistinguishible from how the historical campaign tumbled out, then it must be a good simulation of what was going on. And it seems to. The Soviet units functioned as if their combat strength was decreased by the shock. So, in game terms, it was decreased by it.
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




If it produces results that are indistinguishible from how the historical campaign tumbled out, then it must be a good simulation of what was going on. And it seems to. The Soviet units functioned as if their combat strength was decreased by the shock. So, in game terms, it was decreased by it.

First off, the results aren't 'indistinguishable.' I noted that Brest Litovsk had apparently fallen easily on the first week of your scenario -- in fact, it held out for around a month.

If you're talking about the end results, that's not particularly hard. I could generate two random TO&E's and adjust the shock levels until the Germans got to about where they historically got -- but I wouldn't call the results a simulation.

In any case, this is what I hate about arguing with you. Rather than proposing anything constructive, you just lay down a claim that something is just fine and stick to it with bulldog persistence, no matter what arguments or what evidence is presented to the contrary. It's a notch above exchanging flames with 'Vicious Weasel' or whatever he calls himself -- but it's still not very constructive.

Shock is not a comprehensively satisfactory tool for modeling all military deficiencies. Can we grant that and move on?
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
First off, the results aren't 'indistinguishable.' I noted that Brest Litovsk had apparently fallen easily on the first week of your scenario -- in fact, it held out for around a month.

Not a corps holding 50km of front. Bypassed small pockets are modeled in the scenario via cadres randomly reappearing in the German rear. And the frontier defenses have to be judged on their overall performance, not a single anecdote. And overall, they performed very poorly. That can't be accounted for by just "bad orders". They were all in defensive stances at the start. Their historical performance supports lower combat strength ratings. And that makes perfect sense - they were incurring a surprise attack. The Germans were on a war-footing and they weren't. It was just like Pearl Harbor.
If you're talking about the end results, ...

Not just the end frontline locations - the intermediate waypoints, losses, sound justification for the historical command decisions, plausible accommodation of deviation from those decisions, and ending in the historical conditions as well as locations (assuming all command decisions had been historical), etc.
...that's not particularly hard. I could generate two random TO&E's and adjust the shock levels until the Germans got to about where they historically got -- but I wouldn't call the results a simulation.

Oh, it's very hard. But if and when you ever actually do the above (assuming you could), if it actually met the above standards it would be a good simulation. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and flaps its wings like a duck - its a duck!
In any case, this is what I hate about arguing with you. Rather than proposing anything constructive, you just lay down a claim that something is just fine and stick to it with bulldog persistence, no matter what arguments or what evidence is presented to the contrary. It's a notch above exchanging flames with 'Vicious Weasel' or whatever he calls himself -- but it's still not very constructive.

At least I don't invariably resort to personal comments.
Shock is not a comprehensively satisfactory tool for modeling all military deficiencies. Can we grant that and move on?

No one has said such. Works great for Barbarossa, though.
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



...that's not particularly hard. I could generate two random TO&E's and adjust the shock levels until the Germans got to about where they historically got -- but I wouldn't call the results a simulation.

Oh, it's very hard. But if and when you ever actually do the above (assuming you could), if it actually met the above standards it would be a good simulation. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and flaps its wings like a duck - its a duck!

In other words, I could whip up a map of the Western USSR, put together a 'Soviet Army' consisting of 100 corps with 1000 light rifle squads each, do something similar for the Germans, adjust the shock until the Germans advanced about the right distance in six months, and that would be a good simulation.

That's what I proposed, and that's what you agreed would be a good simulation.
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Shock is not a comprehensively satisfactory tool for modeling all military deficiencies. Can we grant that and move on?

No one has said such. Works great for Barbarossa, though.

I don't think it does, or can, since its effects don't match what was in fact taking place.

It's better than nothing. It could work as part of a suite of devices aimed at simulating what was occurring that summer. It might be all that TOAW offers. However, to insist shock 'works great,' that nothing else is needed to model the peculiarities of the Summer of 1941, is counterproductive and sterile.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
In other words, I could whip up a map of the Western USSR, put together a 'Soviet Army' consisting of 100 corps with 1000 light rifle squads each, do something similar for the Germans, adjust the shock until the Germans advanced about the right distance in six months, and that would be a good simulation.

That's what I proposed, and that's what you agreed would be a good simulation.

With the qualification I added.
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I don't think it does, or can, since its effects don't match what was in fact taking place.

My experimental evidence says otherwise. Rational people revise their theories to align with the evidence.
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I don't think it does, or can, since its effects don't match what was in fact taking place.

My experimental evidence says otherwise. Rational people revise their theories to align with the evidence.

That would explain your famous flexibility and willingness to modify your opinions.

You claim your evidence says otherwise. Theoretically, that's possible -- and indeed, I have no reason to doubt that 'Soviet Union 1941' is a fine scenario.

However, your refusal to admit that shock is not a perfectly satisfactory tool for modeling all the deficiencies besetting Soviet Forces in the Summer of 1941 pretty obviously owes little to anything inherent in that situation.

I was interested in a discussion delineating the problems besetting Soviet forces in 1941, and how these problems might be simulated. You then chose to bring up your scenario and then start insisting that it modeled these problems perfectly.

That's going to pretty much be the obituary of the conversation. Given who you are, I can guarantee we'll never move past that point. So much for any interesting ideas concerning 1941.



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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by rhinobones »

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
. . . the idea of separating the combat effect of negative shock from its other effects (primarily, the tendency of formations to go into reorg) . . .

Wonder if this tendency of going into Reorganization can be overcome by making 110% the default value for both sides and then providing negative shock for one side by lowering its 110% to somewhere from 100% to 109%. Would a side with 105% shock suffer the effects of negative shock against the side with 110% shock without the problems associated with Reorganization?

Don’t recall ever using shock in a scenario design, so I really don’t know if this would cause more problems than it solves. Just a thought.

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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
However, your refusal to admit that shock is not a perfectly satisfactory tool for modeling all the deficiencies besetting Soviet Forces in the Summer of 1941 pretty obviously owes little to anything inherent in that situation.

When I'm right, I stick to my position. The combat effects of TOAW's shock events are not just appropriate to modeling the Soviet forces in the opening stages of Barbarossa, they are essential. No properly designed Barbarossa scenario could work without them. If there had been a event effect that had the C&C effects without the combat strength effects, I wouldn't have used it. Because, without those combat strength effects the Germans would have had too much difficulty clearing the frontier.

Those effects aren't a trick used to artificially force the historical result - they are accurately modeling reality. Initially, the Soviets were under the same factors as the Americans at Pearl Harbor - taken by surprise. Furthermore, as I've pointed out, the effects of C&C disorder don't magically stop at the unit boundary - at the operational level, they form a significant fraction of the unit combat strength.

And those effects linger for a bit, too. Not just because of lingering C&C problems, but also because it takes time for the combat elements to transform from a peacetime mindset to a wartime mindset. This is different from how well they operate their equipment & etc. It's like a baseball team. They aren't at mid-season form on the second day of spring training. They don't get to mid-season form until.....mid-season. In the Pacific, the US carrier force had to first take several "practice" strikes at poorly defended atolls before they were ready to confront the Jap carrier force.
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by ColinWright »

Once more into the breach...
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
However, your refusal to admit that shock is not a perfectly satisfactory tool for modeling all the deficiencies besetting Soviet Forces in the Summer of 1941 pretty obviously owes little to anything inherent in that situation.

When I'm right, I stick to my position. The combat effects of TOAW's shock events are not just appropriate to modeling the Soviet forces in the opening stages of Barbarossa, they are essential. No properly designed Barbarossa scenario could work without them. If there had been a event effect that had the C&C effects without the combat strength effects, I wouldn't have used it. Because, without those combat strength effects the Germans would have had too much difficulty clearing the frontier.

Indeed. And the shock event you mention might be perfectly appropriate for turn 1. Although even there, I would guess that the C&C effects should be even stronger. Even if both C&C and combat strength effects are appropriate, there's no reason to suppose the negative shock event couples them in exactly the right ratio. A hamburger and fries may indeed combine fat, protein, carbohydrates, and leafy vegetables -- there's nothing about them being combined in the ideal ratio.

For the situation after turn 1, your argument gets worse. The Russians rapidly became aware they were at war; and their combat ability rapidly climbed to a certain minima. Shoot at approaching Germans was indeed understood to be the rule. However, their ability to receive and execute commands remained gravely impaired.

Equally to the point, the 'shock' effect totally fails to simulate the tendency to launch futile attacks, to move to positions that made no sense. It can enforce passivity -- although given that it may or may not enforce passivity but will certainly reduce combat effectiveness, I doubt if the ratio between the two effects is at all appropriate to the situation. However, it totally fails to model many of the most signal failings of the Russian army in the Summer of 1941. How do you get the repeated, futile attacks on the same point?

You don't, nor can you without some radical changes in TOAW. However, this does not justify an assertion that negative shock models all this satisfactorily. It obviously doesn't.



Those effects aren't a trick used to artificially force the historical result - they are accurately modeling reality...

No, they are not. They may 'model' some part of it -- reduced combat effectiveness -- quite completely. Comparatively, they probably don't model passive C&C effects -- not being able to move -- with sufficient strength. They don't model active C&C effects -- doing something really dumb -- at all.


Initially, the Soviets were under the same factors as the Americans at Pearl Harbor - taken by surprise. Furthermore, as I've pointed out, the effects of C&C disorder don't magically stop at the unit boundary - at the operational level, they form a significant fraction of the unit combat strength.

And those effects linger for a bit, too. Not just because of lingering C&C problems, but also because it takes time for the combat elements to transform from a peacetime mindset to a wartime mindset. This is different from how well they operate their equipment & etc. It's like a baseball team. They aren't at mid-season form on the second day of spring training. They don't get to mid-season form until.....mid-season. In the Pacific, the US carrier force had to first take several "practice" strikes at poorly defended atolls before they were ready to confront the Jap carrier force.

Oh the effects linger all right. But they fade at different rates, and some of the effects -- those effects the Germans noticed most -- aren't modeled at all.

Negative shock strongly models reduced combat ability. This was actually the least of the Russians' disabilities after turn 1. The Germans always gave the Russians credit for being capable of fighting hard.

Negative shock models passive C&C effects somewhat less strongly. With respect to Barbarossa, the problem here is that to get these effects with sufficient strength, you'd have to grossly overstate the effect on reduced combat ability.

Negative shock doesn't model 'active' C&C effects at all. Nothing in TOAW does -- but this does not thereby justify a claim that negative shock models the situation perfectly. That's analogous to claiming that because I lack the right size wrench, a pair of pliers is the ideal tool for trying to dismount and replace the starter on my car.
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RE: FiTE Concerns

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Indeed. And the shock event you mention might be perfectly appropriate for turn 1. Although even there, I would guess that the C&C effects should be even stronger.

It's definitely appropriate for turn 1, and that's where most of the shock occurs. C&C effects on the frontier Soviets wouldn't have much effect - since most will need to be destroyed in the German player turn.
Even if both C&C and combat strength effects are appropriate, there's no reason to suppose the negative shock event couples them in exactly the right ratio.

Actually, there is. It's called experimental evidence.
For the situation after turn 1, your argument gets worse. The Russians rapidly became aware they were at war; and their combat ability rapidly climbed to a certain minima. Shoot at approaching Germans was indeed understood to be the rule.

Understanding and doing are different things. The Soviets had mostly been shooting at paper targets. They were at peace. The Germans had been shooting at humans that shot back at them. It's a whole different mindset that takes some time to adjust to. Lots of Soviets still hadn't "seen the elephant" several weeks in.
However, their ability to receive and execute commands remained gravely impaired.

Which impacts their combat strength at the operational level.
Equally to the point, the 'shock' effect totally fails to simulate the tendency to launch futile attacks, to move to positions that made no sense. It can enforce passivity -- although given that it may or may not enforce passivity but will certainly reduce combat effectiveness, I doubt if the ratio between the two effects is at all appropriate to the situation. However, it totally fails to model many of the most signal failings of the Russian army in the Summer of 1941. How do you get the repeated, futile attacks on the same point?

You don't, nor can you without some radical changes in TOAW. However, this does not justify an assertion that negative shock models all this satisfactorily. It obviously doesn't.

It doesn't "totally fail to simulate" that. It simulates it as a amalgamated whole. It doesn't simulate the minutia. But the overall effect is modeled.
Those effects aren't a trick used to artificially force the historical result - they are accurately modeling reality...

No, they are not. They may 'model' some part of it -- reduced combat effectiveness -- quite completely. Comparatively, they probably don't model passive C&C effects -- not being able to move -- with sufficient strength. They don't model active C&C effects -- doing something really dumb -- at all.

Again, it doesn't model minutia effects, it models the amalgamated whole effect.
Negative shock strongly models reduced combat ability. This was actually the least of the Russians' disabilities after turn 1. The Germans always gave the Russians credit for being capable of fighting hard.

That is a tactical combat factor. Operational unit combat factors include C&C.
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RE: FiTE Concerns

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