Happy Birthday Uncle Sam

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Happy 4th of July to our American brethren! [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Big B]

Actually guys, I think most of the major engagements of the American Revolutionary War had 11,000 - 14,000+ men arrayed on each side.
Siege of Boston 1776, Long Island (or Brooklyn Heights)1776, White Plains 1776, Brandywine Creek 1777, Germantown 1777, Monmouth Courthouse 1778 - all come to mind. I can't remember the forces engaged at Saratoga.
Really, it was only after the stalemate in the main theater of war (New Jersey - New York - Pennsylvania, after Monmouth) and the war shifted south - that the major battles got smaller. Heck, as I recall the Long Island campaign started with 20,000 to 30,000 men arrayed on each side ... before the maneuvering and garrisoning started draining strength.

Anyway, Happy 4th Of July!

And I hope we last a bit longer [:)]

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve




Terminus is right, 8,000 men were a very significant number considering the battles were fought with 5,000 total (both sides) ! And no other country had a fleet that could challenge Britian. The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.

You are quite right. I do not think enough Americans understand the importance of the help, monetarily and militarily , that the French gave us in our fight for freedom. To me it does not matter if the help came mainly because the French wanted to get back at the British, they helped us when we needed it the most.

OK you guys: 8000 mens on the whoole american front was for France something like a logistical chalenge. I still think France could have done more ? Even in the 7 year war, France had hard time to send troops to Montcalm in Canada. The british didn't had too much difficulties: it depend on the fact that Britain could defend it's shore with the "wooden walls" of her ships; France had to take kare of it's borders with troops.
During Independance war, France mainly ask volontaries in the beginning (Lafayette). Later came the regular troops of Rochambeau. But i didn't remenber that the sum of troops was so "light" during the differents battles.
Anyway,what is sure is that (i've taken back my history books this morning) Louis XVI, king of France, had some good feeling with the idea of republic. Of course, he wasn't ready to give up it's power (you can see it during the French revolution), but he was ready to make some political changes. In France, he never had the opportunities to do it: their was resistance from ministries, nobles, and so on; during the revolution, the changes were not enough for the revolutionnaries.
But, 20 years before, Louis XVI was much enclined to help a borning nation because it was "enlighten" by the new political ideas of the french thinkers, and may be this could be later a friendly nation (at this time, the power of France made that few countries were really friend with France, and (sorry for our english threadster) England was delivering some money to the countries in Europe who would keep away from France.
To finish: the whole reason of the help given to USA is in fact complicated by all the geopolitical hints of the era.
Anyway: enjoy your national day (surprisingly, in France,for 14th july not much people remenber what it's all about)

[Historiker]

And I hope we last a bit longer

The free part of the rest of the world hopes that as well [;)]

[Mynok]

Historiker, if you are in the North Carolina area ever, do PM me so we can enjoy some non-American [:D] brews together. I would enjoy that.

Personally, I'm quite grateful for the help that our French friends gave us during our struggles with the British. I do not denigrate that help nor overlook its significance. It was critical.

We have always been tied to our European forebears, whether we like to admit that or not. That is our heritage. We ignore that to our detriment.

But we must learn from it as well. Learn what to do and what not to do equally. Our forebears were not without problems or sin. They were flawed like we are.

Let us take a humble and historical approach and take the good with the bad, learn from both, and be an influence in the world for the better. In ALL the world. Humbly and with an attitude of service.

[BrucePowers]

Happy 4th to all[8D]

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Historiker, if you are in the North Carolina area ever, do PM me so we can enjoy some non-American [:D] brews together. I would enjoy that.

Personally, I'm quite grateful for the help that our French friends gave us during our struggles with the British. I do not denigrate that help nor overlook its significance. It was critical.

We have always been tied to our European forebears, whether we like to admit that or not. That is our heritage. We ignore that to our detriment.

But we must learn from it as well. Learn what to do and what not to do equally. Our forebears were not without problems or sin. They were flawed like we are.

Let us take a humble and historical approach and take the good with the bad, learn from both, and be an influence in the world for the better. In ALL the world. Humbly and with an attitude of service.

In the words of my profession: "That will preach, brother!"

[Mynok]

I wish it would my friend. Unfortunately, I fear the powers that be in this world do not grasp the basics of the human condition. They seek power when the true reward is to seek humility. They seek control when the true objective is service. They seek relevance when the right goal is relation. God help us.

God help us, for we are all one flesh, and one decrepit condition. We have one hope and few there are that find it.

[pasternakski]

Ah!

[Hornblower]

Happy Birthday, and to all those brave men and women who made it possible- and continue to make it possible - thank you..  
 

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: spence

The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.

The "colonies" didn't have a ship of the line for another couple of wars actually. The victory at Yorktown is very much owed to DeGrasse and the French Navy. The stalemate with England in 1812-14 owes a certain debt to a Corsican Frenchman as well.

Sorry my friend, I must beg to differ. At the end of the war, Commodore John Paul Jones, in one of his last actions, Presents a gift to France of America, ship of the line,74 guns. (The continental navy was disbanded).

Yeah, but if I recall correctly, the 74 gun USS America was never commissioned into the US Navy. Instead, she was delivered to the french upon completion, and proved to be a near disaster as a ship of the line. I'm pretty sure that the french condemned her only a few years after taking possession.

[Hornblower]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: spence



The "colonies" didn't have a ship of the line for another couple of wars actually. The victory at Yorktown is very much owed to DeGrasse and the French Navy. The stalemate with England in 1812-14 owes a certain debt to a Corsican Frenchman as well.

Sorry my friend, I must beg to differ. At the end of the war, Commodore John Paul Jones, in one of his last actions, Presents a gift to France of America, ship of the line,74 guns. (The continental navy was disbanded).

Yeah, but if I recall correctly, the 74 gun USS America was never commissioned into the US Navy. Instead, she was delivered to the french upon completion, and proved to be a near disaster as a ship of the line. I'm pretty sure that the french condemned her only a few years after taking possession.

You are correct.. she was built with Green wood and as a result ended up with dry rot. (look at my signature, i know this stuff) The french wrote her off after less then 5 years. Also, she only carried long 18's and long 12 pounders.. Not the 32's and 18 (or 24 pounders on the larger 74's) that were normal in the British Navy (OT... Best Ship of the Line the USN every launched was the USS Ohio..)

[AW1Steve]

My understanding was the United States Navy did not exist. The Navy of the United colonies did. I'm not exactly sure what the debate here is about. The defination of is?

[bradfordkay]

She was never commissioned into any version of the US Navy. For brevity sake, many of us consider the Continental Navy the birth of the US Navy. So, we're not talking semantics here, but the fact that she was never a part of the US naval service. At least as far as I know... 

[AW1Steve]

OK Brad , I'll conceed to you. The comment was that the Colonies didn't have a ship of the line. You are right. They had 85% of a ship of the line. Not good enough.

[bradfordkay]

When you consider how undergunned she was compared to a British 74, it is probably a good thing that they never got her into service during the war. What surprises me is that they were able to spend so long building her without RN intervention. 

[Hornblower]

she was built across the river from Portsmouth, NH (home of some of the best sailors in the age of sail - just like her namesake in the UK)

[Historiker]

Historiker, if you are in the North Carolina area ever, do PM me so we can enjoy some non-American brews together. I would enjoy that.

I'm happy to do that.
Maybe next summer or autum, we'll see

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

she was built across the river from Portsmouth, NH (home of some of the best sailors in the age of sail - just like her namesake in the UK)

That town "across the river" was Kittery Maine. The location of the Portsmouth Naval ships yard. They also built the Ranger , of John Paul Jones fame. And many , many submarines, the last one USS Sand Lance in the late 1960's. The yard's motto is "from sails to atoms".

But to us Mainers (or in my case , former Mainers,) It's "The Kittery Naval ship yard " that's across the Piscataqua River from Portsmouth. [:D]

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Historiker, if you are in the North Carolina area ever, do PM me so we can enjoy some non-American brews together. I would enjoy that.

I'm happy to do that.
Maybe next summer or autum, we'll see

Count me in, too, Historiker. Mynok and I are neighbors. [:)]

[ckammp]

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