Enough already!

[Alexander Seil]

Again, I contend that the "hardcore" part of the market is a lot more conservative in their preferences than the mainstream that could be tapped with the right marketing (and understandable game mechanics - which doesn't mean stupid game mechanics, by the way).

Basically the wargaming companies need to start understanding the concept of hype (see, again, Paradox's much-covered presence at E3), and of how to create it. At that point your options regarding subject matter expand greatly, because the average PC gamer is a lot more open to new ideas than the average "hobbyist" or "grognard." Sure, WW2 still sells more no matter what, but its advantage is greatly diminished in the general market.

If we change genres, take BioShock as an example of how unusual settings can be leveraged for great market success. I mean, come on, a FPS/RPG hybrid set in an underwater 1960's city inspired by Ayn Rand?! "But that will never sell!" says Joe the Dimwitted Marketing Manager [8|]

[V22 Osprey]

Well, adding to what I said above, COTA is a great game no doubt, but being just about Crete and Malta is very limited.It would be better to give us the Airborne Assualt engine game that covers a whole war, or entire front(like the indiviual games in the Campaign Series).If they did a title that maybe covers the entire East/West/Pacific Front Panthers games would have all my money.But I'll stick with JTCS since I can play any battle I want.

[Mike Parker]

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

I think the problem with having (almost) nothing but WW2 titles is a vicious circle of sorts.

- Companies produce nothing but WW2 games because that´s what they think will sell
- Gamers buy the WW2 games because there´s nothing else on the market and playing the umpteenth Bulge game is better than nothing
- Seeing that WW2 games sell, companies produce more WW2 games
- Well what do you think gamers buy now?

Actually, sure, it´s not just WW2, but in my personal and underinformed opinion something like 90% of all wargames seem to be WW2, and of the rest, 40% each are ACW and Napoleonics. And that´s if you count the Total War series and such as wargames rather than mainstream strategy titles.

That is actually unfortunate, but I think very true given my limited experience.

When I want to play a strategy game WWII is a very good subject, because of the expansiveness of the conflict. Napoleonics second. When I want a game about a battle.. well that goes somewhere else.

In my early days of gaming two games hooked me for Strategy AH's Third Reich, and AH's War and Peace. For tactics though, two other games were my favourite, both AH games, Caesar Alesia, and for the life of me I cannot remember the title, but it was Alexander Vrs. Darius on the plains of galgemea (sp?). Both ancient. I also loved Midway an AH classic as well as a few others.

The glut of WWII games is a bit much.

[Anthropoid]

You should try Hired Guns, a "Matrix Title" that IMO is pretty innovative. But you're right about the hype factor. It amazes me how unhyped Matrix remains about itself.

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

Again, I contend that the "hardcore" part of the market is a lot more conservative in their preferences than the mainstream that could be tapped with the right marketing (and understandable game mechanics - which doesn't mean stupid game mechanics, by the way).

Basically the wargaming companies need to start understanding the concept of hype (see, again, Paradox's much-covered presence at E3), and of how to create it. At that point your options regarding subject matter expand greatly, because the average PC gamer is a lot more open to new ideas than the average "hobbyist" or "grognard." Sure, WW2 still sells more no matter what, but its advantage is greatly diminished in the general market.

If we change genres, take BioShock as an example of how unusual settings can be leveraged for great market success. I mean, come on, a FPS/RPG hybrid set in an underwater 1960's city inspired by Ayn Rand?! "But that will never sell!" says Joe the Dimwitted Marketing Manager [8|]

[Arsan]

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Well, adding to what I said above, COTA is a great game no doubt, but being just about Crete and Malta is very limited.It would be better to give us the Airborne Assualt engine game that covers a whole war, or entire front(like the indiviual games in the Campaign Series).If they did a title that maybe covers the entire East/West/Pacific Front Panthers games would have all my money.But I'll stick with JTCS since I can play any battle I want.

COTA is not only about Malta and Crete. [:-]
It also covers both the mainland Greece campaigns (the disastrous Italians vs Greece and the onslaught of the Germans against the allies). And since the last patch it also includes several North african scenarios (with the sexy Afrika korps in them [8D])
Besides there are a bunch of user made scenarios that cover battles as Narvik or Operation Sealion.
Check them here
http://cota.matrixgames.com/downloads/

Having limited gaming time and a lot of cool wargames around to play i prefer quality to quantity. I have the Campaign series games (bought years ago form Talonsoft), but i don't think i played more than 10% of their scenarios.
I only have one life [;)]
They were great games back then and probably they are very good still, but IMHO they can't compare with the most realist and sophisticated wargame engine around: Pather games one [&o]

Cheers

[doomtrader]

@ Alexander, maybe the excuse is lame, but I think that Matrix is not able to make such much hype as Electronics Arts do. I think there are two zeros (or at least one) of difference in yearly income of both companies.

Another thing is that 99% of forumees here are not average players. For a casual player it's very important to have pure joy from playing the game, and thinking is not always close to that.


I've got nothing against saying that the graphic is few years old (even Paradox' 3D is old), but why every strategy has to be called hardcore?

Other thing is that some of the game have so great modding potential, that it's possible to make it completly different title. Look at the Fallout Mod for Hearts of Iron 2. Look at the mods made for Mount&Blade.

BTW: Paradox games ARE turn based, to say even more, take a look at HoI 3 map, most of the provinces are pentagonal and hexagonal.

[Arsan]

BTW: Paradox games ARE turn based, to say even more, take a look at HoI 3 map, most of the provinces are pentagonal and hexagonal.

Really?? [8|]
I must have been distracted since i started playing EU1 in 2001 and never noticed [;)]

[doomtrader]

@Arsan
Yes it's really turn based but you don't have to click end turn.
There are even few types of turn:
1. Hourly, most of the game mechanics use it.
2. Daily, used especialy for research and events (of course events can be trigerred at specific hour but Paradox is not using this)
3. Some of the game mechanics changes are reloaded only when a country is annexed or game is loaded, so that's why in some of the mods there are offmap countries made especially for that.

[Arsan]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

@Arsan
Yes it's really turn based but you don't have to click end turn.
There are even few types of turn:
1. Hourly, most of the game mechanics use it.
2. Daily, used especialy for research and events (of course events can be trigerred at specific hour but Paradox is not using this)
3. Some of the game mechanics changes are reloaded only when a country is annexed or game is loaded, so that's why in some of the mods there are offmap countries made especially for that.

Well, i guess we call the same thing with different names. [:)]
In my book that is (Pausable) Real Time.
The player don't care much about how the inner game engine calculations are done (every second, every minute, every hour...)
But the gameplay is certainly Real time
Using the same logic a turn based game can be said to be Real time, except that it is auto paused from time to time [:'(]

Cheers!

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Arsan

COTA is not only about Malta and Crete. [:-]
It also covers both the mainland Greece campaigns (the disastrous Italians vs Greece and the onslaught of the Germans against the allies). And since the last patch it also includes several North african scenarios (with the sexy Afrika korps in them [8D])
Besides there are a bunch of user made scenarios that cover battles as Narvik or Operation Sealion.
Check them here
http://cota.matrixgames.com/downloads/

Having limited gaming time and a lot of cool wargames around to play i prefer quality to quantity. I have the Campaign series games (bought years ago form Talonsoft), but i don't think i played more than 10% of their scenarios.
I only have one life [;)]
They were great games back then and probably they are very good still, but IMHO they can't compare with the most realist and sophisticated wargame engine around: Pather games one [&o]

Cheers

Double dittos. What you wrote fits my situation exactly-except that I have been off work for 3 weeks and have another 1 to go. I have plenty of time (currently) to play my nice collection of games, but I still ended up with CotA this evening-again-even though I have some fairly new ones that I have hardly touched. It is a special game.

BTW; there is another new North Africa scenario, Battle Axe. Its not hosted at PG yet, but should be soon. Its very well done-created by one of our more illustrious members, PoE.

Regarding the era's that developers choose; I think it goes without saying that more is known about WW2 than any other war. There is more written about WW2 than any other war. It would follow that more people have read or studied that particular war and thus there are more people interested in gaming that war. Its my experience that playing a game in a setting that one is familiar with is more enjoyable-if one is interested in historical what ifs.

I am currently playing Crown of Glory EE. It is a very well designed game and is enjoyable to play. However, due to my lack of detailed knowledge of that era, I really have little to gage my "successes" in the game. This detracts from the pleasure of playing an otherwise enjoyable game.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Arsan

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

@Arsan
Yes it's really turn based but you don't have to click end turn.
There are even few types of turn:
1. Hourly, most of the game mechanics use it.
2. Daily, used especialy for research and events (of course events can be trigerred at specific hour but Paradox is not using this)
3. Some of the game mechanics changes are reloaded only when a country is annexed or game is loaded, so that's why in some of the mods there are offmap countries made especially for that.

Well, i guess we call the same thing with different names. [:)]
In my book that is (Pausable) Real Time.
The player don't care much about how the inner game engine calculations are done (every second, every minute, every hour...)
But the gameplay is certainly Real time
Using the same logic a turn based game can be said to be Real time, except that it is auto paused from time to time [:'(]

Cheers!

[:D] It does not matter how the clock advances, but what is happening while it advances. In RT pause-able both sides are doing things simultaneously. That is how Eu and HoI operate-regardless if you stop the clock every hour, day, or month. WEGO is the nice in-between method-sort of turn based, but sort of not turn based.

[doomtrader]

Of course guys you are right, this is how I only wanted to show you that something it's not exactly what it looks like.
I've been a Paradox (especially HoI2) modder for a long time and realized it's a 'turn based' when I started to lurk into the files.
To be honest Paradox games are a real Real Time Strategies in my opinion, not those arcade C&C or Starcraft. [;)]

[Arsan]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

To be honest Paradox games are a real Real Time Strategies in my opinion, not those arcade C&C or Starcraft. [;)]

Of course! Real Time does not mean standard "build and battle" RTS
We Could use the RRTS acronym ("real" real time strategy) for them [:D]
Cheers

[Tomus]

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

Johan said it was 200,000 with 60,000 in USA

I remember 500,000 rather distinctly (from a recent article/interview), although I can't find the interview where it cropped up, it's possible the numbers were given at different times. In any case, at 200,000, it may still be the best selling wargame of all times.

What did the original TOAWs sell? I think it was around 20,000? That's the only number I ever heard at least.

Except what was told above, also reviewers are a little bit guilty. If there is a review of a wargame (hexes, turns) in some non-wargaming magazine or portal, then it's most often starts with the words: "Another hardcore title for veterans from XXX company (...)". There is also a lot of words like hard, challenge, complicated etc.
I'm not suprised that regular player baypasses strategy genre.

Lame excuses for poor marketing [8|] Being described as "challenging" is better than not being described at all. Besides, I have never seen "depth" being a reason for a low rating. Poor tutorials, incomprehensible interfaces, rampant bugs and ugly graphics do that. "Depth" ends up being a positive characteristics in any mainstream review, and simplicity often gets blasted (take a look at any review for Spore).

Also, a big hint - the reason hexes get blasted is because they are a throwback to boardgames that PCs are supposed to be able to transcend. Incidentally, Airborne Assault games demonstrate clearly that they can. Turn-based mechanics don't get any negative ratings if they make sense in the context of the game, but then there is no rule that says that a wargame has to be turn-based (or hex-based).

Companies have tried to mainstream strategy games with depth, Battlefront with Theatre of War and Combat Mission Shockforce have both opted for decent graphics, smooth interfaces and somewhat hyped releases and they have been forced from the retail market and into download only land.

Even in the FPS world games like Red Orchestra and BF Project Reality despite great word of mouth and superb gameplay are not exactly popular.

[Rabbitman]

Would I be the only one interested in a serious game based around the Gallipoli campaign??

It's an interesting period of my nation's history and I think it would make for an interesting wargame and I've not seen any game really tackling this campaign yet(well not to my knowledge anyway).

[SlickWilhelm]

ORIGINAL: Rabbitman

Would I be the only one interested in a serious game based around the Gallipoli campaign??

It's an interesting period of my nation's history and I think it would make for an interesting wargame and I've not seen any game really tackling this campaign yet(well not to my knowledge anyway).

No, you would not be the only one interested in a Gallipoli campaign. [:)]

Time for a WWI thread!

[Lützow]

ORIGINAL: Tomus

Companies have tried to mainstream strategy games with depth, Battlefront with Theatre of War and Combat Mission Shockforce have both opted for decent graphics, smooth interfaces and somewhat hyped releases and they have been forced from the retail market and into download only land.

CS:Shockforce is a good example about how a former intriguing series went down the drain, as the dev's decided to target a larger audience by introducing real-time. I did not bother with ToW 2 but according to forum activity sales numbers shouldn't be too high as well.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

ORIGINAL: Rabbitman

Would I be the only one interested in a serious game based around the Gallipoli campaign??

It's an interesting period of my nation's history and I think it would make for an interesting wargame and I've not seen any game really tackling this campaign yet(well not to my knowledge anyway).

No, you would not be the only one interested in a Gallipoli campaign. [:)]

Time for a WWI thread!

It would certainly look different. The hexes would be in yards and the unit size in Bn's perhaps. I've never seen a game like that.

There is no shortage of interesting battle to model. Gallipoli would certainly be one-although it might get a little boring for many players. Although it was a great scheam that could have had historical implications, it turned into an absurdly crowded and imobile situation. How to make that a fun game would be a challenge in itself.

[Anthropoid]

Listening to you guys list off all these games that you laud but I've never heard of  (COTA, Red Orchestra, Shockforce . . .) is like being led on a whirlwind tour of the best cat house in Belgium and told 'you can only look, don't touch' . . . RL and the requirement to work and keep wife's happy really bites! [:@]

[SireChaos]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

You should try Hired Guns, a "Matrix Title" that IMO is pretty innovative. But you're right about the hype factor. It amazes me how unhyped Matrix remains about itself.

I think a major part of the hype factor is that most mainstream games just plain look lots cooler than most "hardcore" wargames. As far as I can tell, the mass market goes more for shiny looks than for deep subjects.