Blood!

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Sonny II

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Is this a typical result in AE? This is the Guadalcanal Scenario, just playing the US AI, nice result, but WOW is this lopsided! Granted I probably caught this TF unloading at the pier, but still......this seems BLOODY to me. Complete wipeout!

Do I even carry this much ammo on board?

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 22, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 114,138, Range 10,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 3
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta, Shell hits 14
CL Yubari
E Yunagi

Allied Ships
DD Bagley, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
DD Blue, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
DD Helm, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Henley, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
DMS Zane, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
DMS Trevor, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
AP Hunter Liggett, Shell hits 25, and is sunk
AP American Legion, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
AP George F. Elliot, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AP Fuller, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AP McCawley, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
AP Henderson, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
AP President Jackson, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AP President Adams, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
AP President Hayes, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AP President Monroe, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AP Crescent City, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
AP Heywood, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
AKA Bellatrix, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
AKA Libra, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
AKA Fomalhaut, Shell hits 20, and is sunk
AKA Betelgeuse, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
AKA Alhena, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

PS: I loaded up the US Side to check FOW....It's all real!

Do you have a save just before this turn?

I would like to look through it and see what is gong on.

Sorry, I don't. I did verify this by immediately loading the US side, and all these ships sunk. I haven't counted all the Shell Hits, but that's a pretty high percentage I think vs. the Ammo those cruisers would carry.

The "shell hits" may include secondary batteries, of which there would be thousands of rounds.

I have seen "clean sweeps" in WITP as well..just not very often. The thought of a potent surface force of 5 Jap combatant vessels with crews experienced in night fighting catching transports at anchor by surprise is an absolute nightmare.

They could scarcely miss with their torps.

I am not sure there is any historical precedent.

[Canoerebel]

What happend Cap? Postus-interruptus?

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What happend Cap? Postus-interruptus?

Yes...someone had the nerve to ask me a work related question at work [:D]

[AttuWatcher]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What happend Cap? Postus-interruptus?

Yes...someone had the nerve to ask me a work related question at work [:D]

I hate when that happens! Who do the think they are! [;)]

[Sonny II]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Sonny II

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Is this a typical result in AE? This is the Guadalcanal Scenario, just playing the US AI, nice result, but WOW is this lopsided! Granted I probably caught this TF unloading at the pier, but still......this seems BLOODY to me. Complete wipeout!

Do I even carry this much ammo on board?

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 22, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 114,138, Range 10,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 3
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta, Shell hits 14
CL Yubari
E Yunagi

Allied Ships
DD Bagley, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
DD Blue, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
DD Helm, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Henley, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
DMS Zane, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
DMS Trevor, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
AP Hunter Liggett, Shell hits 25, and is sunk
AP American Legion, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
AP George F. Elliot, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AP Fuller, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AP McCawley, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
AP Henderson, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
AP President Jackson, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AP President Adams, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
AP President Hayes, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AP President Monroe, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AP Crescent City, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
AP Heywood, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
AKA Bellatrix, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
AKA Libra, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
AKA Fomalhaut, Shell hits 20, and is sunk
AKA Betelgeuse, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
AKA Alhena, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

PS: I loaded up the US Side to check FOW....It's all real!

Do you have a save just before this turn?

I would like to look through it and see what is gong on.

Sorry, I don't. I did verify this by immediately loading the US side, and all these ships sunk. I haven't counted all the Shell Hits, but that's a pretty high percentage I think vs. the Ammo those cruisers would carry.

Could you post the rest of the report? What ranges were involved, if the Allies were surprised.

[Barb]

IRL each troop convoy had some Surface combat escort. Many light and heavy cruisers were employed that way, even battleships and carriers.
Because you have to protect not only "few transports" and "part of a unit" - IRL there were thousands of people there! And you surely have to cover them with few warships or you can ruin your nations will to fight pretty soon [:)]
Imagine what could have happened to Malta convoys without their heavy escorts? It was bloody business anyway.
And you have just send bunch of transports/cargo ships without proper escort close to enemy. Eat what you have cooked!

I am thinking about a "rules of thumb" for distant convoy escorts:
every bigger warship escorting needs 2 DD
For each battalion loaded count 1000 "points" (or men)
DD equals 500, CL=1000, CA=3000, BB,CV=9000 ...

[John Lansford]

I just had a squadron of 6 PT boats swoop in on a Japanese TF composed of a CL, DD, PB and a large AK unloading at Lingayen Bay.  The PT's were spotted at 21000 yds and I was thinking "great, they'll either disengage or get chewed up trying to close" (it was daytime btw).  They closed to 15,000 yds, then 10,000 yds, then 6,000 yds, taking gunfire from the CL and DD all the way in but not getting hit.

At 4000 yds three of them fired torpedoes at the AK, which by then was "trying to get underway".  Two hit and the AK sank, and the PT's then ran back out until they reached 21000 yds, and then disengaged.

The PT boats didn't take one hit.

[Sheytan]

I beg to differ on the point about the allied subs bieng too effective, the S class, and the dutch perhaps, and hell...shouldnt they be? I had one USN sub, not a S class, discharge its entire compliment of torps at ONE ship and each shot was a dud...so please, dont make sweeping comments like that, the example I gave was extreme, but its quite common to see DUD, DUD, DUD.

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I had a US SAG of 3 CL's (1 was a Cleveland) and 4 DD's catch the japs landing at Lea. (7/12/41 grand campaign) The results could only be described as horrific from the jap point of view. But these are the kind of results that I would expect if you catch ships sitting at anchor unloading supplies and troops.

Its almost unfair to look at the historic results and try to compare that to this game. If the ABDA had commanders like Burke and Halsey think what would have happend. Think how much different the ships would have been handled and the possible results.

I am now in the month of January 42 and the losses are;

Jap 2 CV
1 CVL
1 CA
4 CL
6 DD
15-20 xAk/xAp
lots of PC/TB etc

US 1 CV
1 BB I really lucked out and lost no BB's on Dec 7
3 CA
3 CL
6 DD
more aux than I care to count

I think the results "feel" right. The air attacks have little success against single warships but tend to nail support ships. Both sides subs are doing fair even though I think the Allied subs are a little too succesful. Both sides have suffered losses in aircraft and depending who is flying and what type of plane it can be pretty ugly for the bombers. The F4's at Wake did well but the F2's in DEI have little success.

Over all I am happy with the AI and the results. I would not tweek much untill we get several weeks of feed back.

[Tazo]

I still have no opinion about the "too bloody surface warfare" question. Need time to see
that happen by myself. However a few remarks that make me avoid such risks.

"ESCORT"

I agree with barb that it is hard to imagine a real life amirauty planning operations such as
a major landing without clearing the aera with carrier task forces and moreover carrying
troops without a strong close escort. This is not less than the first purpose of our warships !
So if somebody wants to seek and destroy the enemy ships without other purpose then the
risk is to suffer losses without any operational progress. We have to eventually send
troops inside the enemy security perimeter ! Not a single bloody surface TF...

"SURFACE TF"

I used to play a lot of tactical wargames (some with referees and full FOW) as surface
or air TF commander and I was extremely careful with such a responsability : risk
engagement of my ships and guys only to perform a precise task assigned by the
strategic commanders, no question to engage for killings or slaughters... And no
question to spend days in dangerous waters, just land the stuff then go back ! Or
secure the perimeter far from immediate front line. Three important points :
1- day surface engagement can be avoided or limited by the weaker side, and the stronger
side is deadly exposed to air TF's, quite often hidden not so far away, so without a landing
or bombing or counter landing mission don't expose suface TF's, and keep your cruisers
somewhere else, like the next convoy... their main purpose according to me.
2- night surface engagements should be extremely randomized ! Bad for nerves, one can
loose a lot ! Remenber to become crazy when surprised several times by a DD crossing
my heading CA trajectory, only 5 minutes to fire one or two salvos before she desappears
again, and for sure, even if the DD explodes, a row of torpedoes are closing the big ship[:@] !
So night means extreme danger, and may result in nervous breakdown of the staff, and
conducting unnecessary night mission with potential opposition is not advisable.
3- damaged ships are useless for months and your troops will have to swim from isle to isle
by their own if you can no more escort amphibious landings because of a seek and destroy
strategy ! Even if all warships of both sides anihilate each other then... no more invasion
because the planes will rule the sky and the sea as well. Cruisiers provide precious AAA also...

"BLOOD"

I hope that the system allows a couple of DD to hit cruisers surprised in night cruising...
Night is really a nightmare, to my player experience. Also, with respect to large convoys
don't forget that the number of salvos is limited and to slaughter 20 ships escaping in all
directions you need quite a large number of ships : I also experienced this is atlantic
convoys attacked by german pocket BB or heavy CA. Technically it seems hard to sink
that many ships at sea in "one day" battle with few attackers. However an EXCEPTION :
if the convoy is unprotected, landing or anchored at the front line then what, it is like a chess
gambit, take the offered piece ! Only beginners can send marines to war and provide them
with school buses escorted by bicycles ! Air cover and heavy escort is really a mandatory to
avoid bloody encounters.

So in WitP I am very careful with my surface engagements. A so huge theater with so few
units and most of them impossible to replace, beware of the purposeless or gamble battles !

[AttuWatcher]

ORIGINAL: Tazo
However an EXCEPTION :
if the convoy is unprotected, landing or anchored at the front line then what, it is like a chess
gambit, take the offered piece ! Only beginners can send marines to war and provide them
with school buses escorted by bicycles !

[:D] Good points Tazo.