The CAP Thread

[88l71]

Yeah, I know there's an editor....I just have yet to mess with it, still working on learning the game itself...maybe I will nonetheless set up a Phillippine Sea style test this week...

[Xxzard]

I would say those GC results are looking a bit better, more realistic and historical, the main thing seems to be that an escort group is not going to be very effective, but neither will the cap be successful intercepting all bombers. it's bloody, but it isn't a total slaughter that prevents a raid from going in at all.

Wildcats have made a pretty good showing, but I suppose they are probably pretty high exp groups.


So what could possibly cause the differences between scenarios?

[rominet]

I would say something about the tests i made, especially the last one in the GC scenario.

I already told that, to my opinion, the Jap CAP, even much better than in the Coral sea scen, is better
but remains less efficient than the US's one. (I am in that moment making other tests which confirm this).

But looking to exp of fighter pilot is interesting:

the 2 US fighter group have 84 and 85 in exp,
the 2 Jap fighter group have 59 and 62 in exp. [X(][X(]

We are the december 9. [X(]

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: rominet

I would say something about the tests i made, especially the last one in the GC scenario.

I already told that, to my opinion, the Jap CAP, even much better than in the Coral sea scen, is better
but remains less efficient than the US's one. (I am in that moment making other tests which confirm this).

But looking to exp of fighter pilot is interesting:

the 2 US fighter group have 84 and 85 in exp,
the 2 Jap fighter group have 59 and 62 in exp. [X(][X(]

We are the december 9. [X(]

This is likely due to the fact that the IJN has no RADAR. They only have a "Visual Search" which represents the KB's pre-radar Air search and CAP doctrine. As primitive as CXAMs were, they were much better than MkI mod 0 eyeballs...

[2ndACR]

I was just looking at the GC........Akagi has a fighter exp of 65?
 
All of KB has average of 75 exp? Were not these the elite of the IJN?
 
You would think these fighter pilots would have an average of 80+

[Historiker]

Depends on how "elite" is defined, here.

If the "usual" elite pilot is between 80 and 90 in witp, what xp would a Hans-Joachim Marsaille have, then? 200?

It's really good to decrease the overall lever als REAL elite pilots will be extremely superior then - as they were.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Depends on how "elite" is defined, here.

If the "usual" elite pilot is between 80 and 90 in witp, what xp would a Hans-Joachim Marsaille have, then? 200?

It's really good to decrease the overall lever als REAL elite pilots will be extremely superior then - as they were.

As far as I can tell there has been a reset on all EXP levels to allow for more room for variation. USN pilots used to all come out of the replacement pool at 65; now they come out at 55. If you look you will see a degradation across the board. So 65-70 is the new 80. So instead of 80 EXP A6M pilots taking on 65 F4F pilots, you now see 70 taking on 55. So the spread is the same; the set point has just changed. INteresting in that this does mean that an AE 80 plus pilot is a rare gem to be used very carefully

[vettim89]

I recant. CAP is not broken. CS CAP may be broken but the results I am getting from the GC scenario today seem about right. Some observations:

1. A6M seems to perform historically against F4F. In air battles off GC, I am seeing greatly outnumbered Zeros get about even odd results - i.e. killing as many F4F as they are losing. Considering the long range and odds, I think this is about right.

2. The AE Miss Betty lives up to her nickname: Flying Zippo. When they dare come unescorted they go BOOM real good!

3, Flak is working. Well protected TF's with the mid 1942 upgrades seem much better at knocking a/c out of the sky then in CS

Off topic: thae AI is an aggressive little pile of electrons. I had my CVTF just south of Lunga covering a convoy and the AI sent TWO BB based SCTF into the hex. My CV's evaded but they were foreced to retreat. Of course the CV air groups ripped the IJN fleet to pieces. FOW says two BB and a CA sunk but I don't beleive it. I am pretty sure that one CA (Maya) went down and four BB's are hurt. I pulled out to regroup and the IJN CV's showed up the next turn: A day late and a dollar short they say.

[Miller]

Good to see the problem of weak CAP seems to be limited to the smaller scenarios.

One thing I have noticed though is that on average the American CV pilots have around 10 higher exp than the IJN groups. I know the USN pilots were very well trained, but better than the cream of the KB??

[sval062]

ORIGINAL: rominet

But looking to exp of fighter pilot is interesting:

the 2 US fighter group have 84 and 85 in exp,
the 2 Jap fighter group have 59 and 62 in exp. [X(][X(]

We are the december 9. [X(]

[X(]

Is it overall Exp?
If yes, what is the air combat exp for both sides?

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: sval

ORIGINAL: rominet

But looking to exp of fighter pilot is interesting:

the 2 US fighter group have 84 and 85 in exp,
the 2 Jap fighter group have 59 and 62 in exp. [X(][X(]

We are the december 9. [X(]

[X(]

Is it overall Exp?
If yes, what is the air combat exp for both sides?

oops sorry, i made a mistake

Air skill for Jap are 59 and 61.
Air skill for US are 70 and 71.

I made confusion with Coreal sea scenario.

That's better but still too high for US or too low for Japs.

[sval062]

ORIGINAL: rominet
Air skill for Jap are 59 and 61.
Air skill for US are 70 and 71.

I made confusion with Coreal sea scenario.

That's better but still too high for US or too low for Japs.

C'est pas beau l'abus d'alcool [:'(] [:D]

2ndACR said that the overall average Exp is 75? [&:]

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: sval

ORIGINAL: rominet
Air skill for Jap are 59 and 61.
Air skill for US are 70 and 71.

I made confusion with Coreal sea scenario.

That's better but still too high for US or too low for Japs.

C'est pas beau l'abus d'alcool [:'(] [:D]

2ndACR said that the overall average Exp is 75? [&:]

Exp 75 is the average air skill for the 4 other jap CV.

Bon, ça va ou tu m'embêtes encore , hic !!![:D]

[rominet]

The jap player wants to gain air superiority above PM.
He has 27 A6M2, average exp=60.
They are based at Lae and will make sweep on PM.



For its defense, the US player has 27 P-40E, average exp=60, at PM and will attempt to keep air superiority by setting them in CAP 100%.



I will test different altitudes for jap and US fighters.

All tests will be shown like that:

A6M2's altitude(manuever at this altitude)/P-40E altitude(manuever at aggressor altitude)

A6M2's kills by air combat and at the end, the total
P-40E's kills by air combat and at the end, the total

For each serie (each couple of altitude), i made 6 tests and 10 for the last one.


Serie 1:

The jap player launches his Zero at 5000.
The P-40E are making CAP at 10000.

5000(33)/10000(16)

A6M2:9/6/10/13/10/9 = 54
P-40E:0/1/2/2/4/3 = 12

A disaster for the jap


Serie 2:

The jap player increases its altitude to 10000.
P-40E remain at 10000.

10000(33)/10000(16)

A6M2:7/5/9/4/9/7 = 41
P-40E:4/2/4/4/2/1 = 17

That's better for japs but still bad


Serie 3:

This time, A6M2 have a better altitude of 15000 against still 10000 for US.

15000(33)/10000(16)

A6M2:5/5/6/9/3/6 = 34
P-40E:5/5/2/3/13/5 = 33

The odds are 1:1.
There is a net effect of altitude.
But Zero needs a better altitude to.


Serie 4:

The US player reacts by increasing its altitude to 15000.
The jap player doesn't change anything.

15000(33)/15000(16)

A6M2:11/8/8/10/4/6 = 47
P-40E:4/1/5/5/2/7 = 24

Bad for jap as was the serie 2.


Serie 5:

The jap reacts and increases the altitude to 20000.
At this altitude, there is a decrease in manuever for both planes.
US fighters remain in CAP at 15000.

20000(27)/15000(11)

A6M2:2/3/6/3/4/4 = 22
P-40E:11/10/6/2/6/10 = 45

First time the jap have victory, very bad for US.
However, the difference between manuever is 1 point less than at lower altitude.
Strange. It should advantage US planes compared to the serie 3 but no.


Serie 6:

The US player worries about and increases its altitude to 20000.
The jap doesn't change anything.

20000(27)/20000(11)

A6M2:6/9/2/8/9/7 = 41
P-40E:3/4/3/6/5/7 = 28

Compared to the serie 4 (same altitude serie), this is a little bit
worse for the US. In spite of a less difference in manuever.


Serie 7:

A last push for jap altitude to 25000 as US fighters remain at 20000.
At 25000, there is another decrease for manuever of both fighters.

25000(21)/20000(6)

A6M2:6/7/7/6/3/4 = 33
P-40E:5/3/2/1/11/5 = 27

A great discrepancy between tests, it is not as good as in serie 5 or 3 for japs.
The altitude effect is not evident here. And they were an other change in both
manuever (in US favor as difference decreased of 1 point again).
I should do more tests especially with this one.


Serie 8:

Desperate, the jap player tries a surprise attack at low altitude (5000) as P-40E are still
at 20000.

5000(33)/20000(16)

A6M2:3/7/5/13/9/12 = 49
P-40E:1/3/4/2/2/3 = 15

It was a surprise, but for the japs and a bad one.
It looks like the serie 1.


Serie 9:

Now, the US fighters become to be tired and are making CAP at only 10000.
After the previous disaster, the japs sweep at 20000.

20000(27)/10000(11)

A6M2:3/4/1/2/6/1 = 17
P-40E: 5/11/7/9/1/5 = 38

Ouahhh, wonderful for jap, as in serie 5.


Serie 10:

The US fighters are very, very tired at altitude 5000.
Jap are boost to 25000.

25000(16)/5000(6)

A6M2:5/8/3/5/6/4/7/2/5/4 = 49
P-40E:3/9/11/6/4/4/1/0/5/3 = 46

Curiously, the effect of great altitude difference is not obvious this time.
That's the reason i made more tests. If it could break the high altitude advantage,
it would be a good thing.
Nearly as the serie 3, 15000/10000.




Some remaks:

1) Yes, i known, 6 tests only for each altitude combinaison is not enough.
I will do more.

2) These tests have been made on Guadalcanal scenario.

3) Strangely, most of the time, the jap made 2 sweeps, one with 3 planes and the other with 24 planes.
I don't known why.

An example:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 06, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 24

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet

CAP engaged:
xxx with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

CAP engaged:
xxx with P-40E Warhawk (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes





4) All losses are coming from the read of Air losses report of the good side. So, no FOW.

5) At the end of my tests, i noticed that they were a lot of operational losses even for P-40E
fighting above their own base. They may come from damaged planes.
Next time, i will take account of that.

6) The altitude effect is clearly demonstrated but i have a question:
as it seems evident that higher altitude gives avantage,
what will stop players to race for higher and higher altitudes in all cases for the defender
and in case of sweep for the attacker? That's a trouble for me.

The only exception is coming from the serie 10 in which i have great hope.


7) As altitude is increasing for both side, it seems to give a small advantage to the Zero in spite of a decrease in difference of manuever.

8) To my point of view, Zero is too weak and disappointing.



If you see some other things ... .

[sval062]

The same test with reversed role would be needed.

Maybe the difference seen (when the altitude is the same) comes from the time of flight for both sides. Jap should be more tired than US since the fight occured at PM.


so what could be the result with US trying to sweep Lae?

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: sval

Maybe the difference seen (when the altitude is the same) comes from the time of flight for both sides. Jap should be more tired than US once since the fight occured at PM.

No, the fatigue is exactly the same for both air groups after combat (18). The distance travelled is short (4 hexes).

For the reverse raid (US sweep on Lae), i am thinking about it.
It takes time.

[Erik Rutins]

Just FWIW, I would use the Grand Campaign for testing if you can, or build a sandbox scenario. Guadalcanal may have other changes from the GC as it is effectively somewhat of a "NikMod" for AE.

Other considerations:

Leaders for each squadron, these can have a real impact if they make their various rolls.
Weather for the combat can affect engagement and losses on both sides.
You'll definitely need a lot more tests to even out the variability.

[Halsey]

I'd like to see the air skill of the pilots in question.

Not the experience level.

Please check the pilot screen for the unit.

Thanks.[;)]

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

I'd like to see the air skill of the pilots in question.

Not the experience level.

Please check the pilot screen for the unit.

Thanks.[;)]

The jap one


the US one

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just FWIW, I would use the Grand Campaign for testing if you can, or build a sandbox scenario. Guadalcanal may have other changes from the GC as it is effectively somewhat of a "NikMod" for AE.

Other considerations:

Leaders for each squadron, these can have a real impact if they make their various rolls.
Weather for the combat can affect engagement and losses on both sides.
You'll definitely need a lot more tests to even out the variability.

Guadalcanal Scenario 4 has only one combat altering mod element: ASW

All other elements are AE standard.