H2H - What do you think ?

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Am I in the middle of a bad dream or what? Im in the middle of converting a scenario by Wild Bill and every thing is going well. But then I go to switch over the Strummorser and it is no longer listed anywhere! We have experimental vehicles like the 105mm K18 Pz Sfl IVa (2 produced), and the 128mm Pz Sfl V (2 produced) but no Strummorser Tiger (18 produced and issued to 3 Strummorser companies 1001-1003). If the vehicle won't fit in the German or Czech OOBs, why not put it in the Bulgarian or Hungarian OOB? I don't mind looking for it as long as it's there. Also I whould like to know if there is a possability to change the Flam Pz III from gray to Panzer Yellow? In the few books I have ,I've never seen a Flam Pz III in Pz Gray. And for any one interested, the cammo SPW 251/1 is not dead. If you realy want your half tracks to be cammo just look in the Rummanian OOB. They may be purchased in sections or platoons under MISC, or directly exchanged for the gray ones with the "Change unit to another unit" toggle.

Have a nice day!:D

[Panzer Leo]

But then I go to switch over the Strummorser and it is no longer listed anywhere!

...and what's wrong with the thing in the Czech OOB named "Sturmtiger" ?

Also I whould like to know if there is a possability to change the Flam Pz III from gray to Panzer Yellow? In the few books I have ,I've never seen a Flam Pz III in Pz Gray.

so it will be...

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Leo, went through the Czech OOB with a fine tooth comb and still can't find it! Should I try to down load H2H again? Could I have a version without the Strummorser?

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
Leo, went through the Czech OOB with a fine tooth comb and still can't find it! Should I try to down load H2H again? Could I have a version without the Strummorser?

My mistake...sorry:rolleyes:

I forgot to change nationality to "Czechoslovakia"...it is in the OOB, but it does not show up...
To fix it for yourself, go into the OOB editor and change the nationality of the Sturmtiger from Germany to Czech...

Is already corrected for the final release...thanks, another error eliminated

And have fun blasting away whole towns with this little toy

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Thanks Leo I'll start blasting right away! One more thing, the turret armor on the Mobelwagen is wrong. Should'nt this be 25mm all around? Your Mobelwagen icon has shields up so this would be ok. An icon is out there with shields down also. Then the only armor to take into consideration would be for the gun shield. Take a look and see what you think. Icon with shields down is in the OOB section of this forum, its by Mike Amos. (War Horse) Hope this helps, and thanks again!:)

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
One more thing, the turret armor on the Mobelwagen is wrong. Should'nt this be 25mm all around? Your Mobelwagen icon has shields up so this would be ok. An icon is out there with shields down also. Then the only armor to take into consideration would be for the gun shield. Take a look and see what you think. Icon with shields down is in the OOB section of this forum, its by Mike Amos. (War Horse) Hope this helps, and thanks again!:)

That's a tough one...I did not change Paul's armor values...they look like a kind of "merged" armor plates (of mobile gun shield and side and front shields). Usually I do not touch Paul's ratings, unless no doubt exists they are wrong...
If I would model it with shields lowered down, it would be completely vulnerable to the sides and rear. That was only the case, when being ready for 360 degrees AA fire. I'm not sure, if the shields could be lowered seperately, but then it would also mean, that the crew kept up side plates, when in danger of being shot at from small arms and no 360 degrees was necessary...would be great if there was a button to switch the shields up and down, but I'm not sure if this will even make it into CL;)
So I think when in doubt, ruling in favour of the accused...shields up:D

[Kevin E. Duguay]

How about 3 gun towed AT gun platoons? I can't even find a refrence to a 4 gun platoon. Except maybe the Africa Korps. I.E. 2-50mm pak, 1-76mmr pak, 1-47mm Bohler or some other unofficial mix of ATG and sometimes more than 4 guns.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Just checked the few photos in the few publications I have. Front shield my be lowered independently. This allows the main gun to be depressed enough to engage ground targets. The side shields could be locked in a semi-lowered possition. If you have a photo handy notice the small armored flaps on the front and rear shields, they swung out to hold side shields in a semi-lowered possition. With shields in this possition 360 degree AA fire was possible. But if front shield is UP the main armament could not in any way fire at ground targets. So is'nt a frontal armor rating of 50 a bit high for a gun shield?:)

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
How about 3 gun towed AT gun platoons? I can't even find a refrence to a 4 gun platoon. Except maybe the Africa Korps. I.E. 2-50mm pak, 1-76mmr pak, 1-47mm Bohler or some other unofficial mix of ATG and sometimes more than 4 guns.

sounds reasonable to me and meets my data of the TO&E...I will make a 3 gun Krupp Protze drawn AT-gun platoon.

So is'nt a frontal armor rating of 50 a bit high for a gun shield?

Yes, from now on front shield will be assumed lowered down and only the gun shield remains as frontal protection. I have to figure out it's strenght (20-25mm I assume) and will change the values...good work !

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Thanks Leo, glad I could help! Here's some more. The Soviet Mot SMG Co is missing the truck for the first squad and is also short one truck in each platoon from 1941 on. The Soviet Mot Guards Co has to many vehicles. The Guards platoons have 3 squads and an MG and 5 trucks. This formation also has 4 komsomolets tractors with nothing to tow. Also when I was looking up some information on Soviet Mec units I found mention of the first motorized infantry battalion being formed back in 1929. The unit was called the First Mechanized Regiment and consisted of 1-tank battalion(MS-1 tanks), a Avtobroni(half track) unit, 1- motor rifle battalion, and an artillery battery. The half tracks were modled after Kegresse types had an armor basis of 7mm, max speed of 40 kph, it had a 5 man crew, and they were armed with 2 MGs. These were used just like armored cars. So basicly what Im asking is could we push the date back for Soviet Motor Rifle units to maybe 1930? If I find anything else I,ll be back!:)

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
Thanks Leo, glad I could help! Here's some more. The Soviet Mot SMG Co is missing the truck for the first squad and is also short one truck in each platoon from 1941 on. The Soviet Mot Guards Co has to many vehicles. The Guards platoons have 3 squads and an MG and 5 trucks. This formation also has 4 komsomolets tractors with nothing to tow. Also when I was looking up some information on Soviet Mec units I found mention of the first motorized infantry battalion being formed back in 1929. The unit was called the First Mechanized Regiment and consisted of 1-tank battalion(MS-1 tanks), a Avtobroni(half track) unit, 1- motor rifle battalion, and an artillery battery. The half tracks were modled after Kegresse types had an armor basis of 7mm, max speed of 40 kph, it had a 5 man crew, and they were armed with 2 MGs. These were used just like armored cars. So basicly what Im asking is could we push the date back for Soviet Motor Rifle units to maybe 1930? If I find anything else I,ll be back!:)

The Soviet Mot troops are already remodeled
I stumbled across it, when playing some Mot Guards and redid all mot formations...

Sov Mot Rifle from 1930 on ??? Why not... Can't find a reason why they shouldn't be able to put some troops on trucks before the war...if you could digg out some more TO&E of mot troops I would fell better, but there's not much I can do wrong with it;)

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Leo, did you mean to say that you went through all Nationalities Motor Units? If not and you kept most of the Matrix version 7.1 OOBs then check out my thread at OOB/TO&E's/Military Equipment sub thread SP:WaW OOB Modifications, titled Soviet Mot Unit's Messed Up! I have a full listing of all the nationalities that may in my opinion need some work or additions or reorganization. I would have typed it all out again here but it's quite extensive. Also there is mention of some other problems with other units that I noticed. For example, the Polish LWP SMG gunners and LPW engineer Squads are armed with 37mm M5 Guns as their primary weapon. there are others so check it out and see if anything in that thread can help you out!:D

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
Leo, did you mean to say that you went through all Nationalities Motor Units? If not and you kept most of the Matrix version 7.1 OOBs then check out my thread at OOB/TO&E's/Military Equipment sub thread SP:WaW OOB Modifications, titled Soviet Mot Unit's Messed Up! I have a full listing of all the nationalities that may in my opinion need some work or additions or reorganization. I would have typed it all out again here but it's quite extensive. Also there is mention of some other problems with other units that I noticed. For example, the Polish LWP SMG gunners and LPW engineer Squads are armed with 37mm M5 Guns as their primary weapon. there are others so check it out and see if anything in that thread can help you out!:D

Well, hmmm...I got quite a few of them already changed, but not nearly as much as you put up on the thread...

I will go through your list and work in what seems reasonable (and that looks to be almost all...)

Thanks for ruining my evening Kevin

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Any time Leo!

[El Vito]

I don't know what can be done, but if you look at production numbers of Soviet to German tanks there is a great injustice in tank costs. 35,120 T-34/76's were produced from 40-45
18,330 T-34/85's from late 43-45
compared to
9,537 Stug III's
6,000 Panthers
7,000 Panzer IV G,H,J
1,354 Tiger E
489 King Tigers

but if you look at the unit costs of German tanks to Soviet, they are roughly the same. sure the Soviet tanks are a bit cheaper but not as cheap as they should be. How were these values figured? How can Stugs IIIs and T34/76's be roughly the same cost when there were 4 times as many T34's?

[Alby]

Good Points vito, Perhaps Leo is looking into that somewhat..

[Svennemir]

Actually the costs are not based on production numbers nor actual production cost for the reason that Soviets are "meant" to have more Buy Points than e.g. the Germans. Try setting up a hotseat game GE vs SO, and buy 3000 pts. worth of German equipment. The Soviet Union will then (IIRC) get just around 4000 points.

That can make a bigger difference than most would think judging the numbers (in my experience).

[El Vito]

I guess giving the Soviets more points could solve this problem, but I have yet to find the German player who would accept this. Its hard enough to talk them into an 8k to 4k assault, which in my opinion is still not enough for a realistic Soviet attack. The Germans would have won the war if they were only outnumbered 2:1 don't you think?

[Drex]

I agree with El Vito. Try playing as the soviets against the Germans with even points and see what happens. Of course both players should be equal in experience. The German armor range finding is so superior to the Russians that the Soviets need the extra points to make up for the losses they end up receiving.

[Panzer Leo]

o.k. guys, I can follow your points and and I also think they are worth trying it...
As you can see, I already gave the Russians an advantage on tank costs and they are not pure battle effectiveness costs (compare the T-34/85 at 102 to the Pzkpfw IVh at 112 and I think everyone agrees the T-34 is the better tank).
I was always a fan of "guiding" folks into historical battle setups and that is best done by costs.
So promoting the use of T-34 tanks for the Russians is just a good idea as it is for a US player to use lots of Arty...
But there're limits to what I can do with the costs. I have only a certain field to work in (255 points). That means I have to consider the costs of other units of a nation, when changing some vehicles. I can go down with the T-34 even a bit further, but it won't be to much, because I still have to rate a tank like the BT-7m in a reasonable way...if I would put a T-34 at 50, I would have to put the BT-7 at 30 to make it anyhow reasonable to purchase one, but then how does this compare to the infantry squads ? Sure the Russians had lots of tanks, but didn't they have lots of infantry, too ? That would then effect the costs of MGs a.s.o.
So I'm somewhat limited especially the nearer it gets to the bottom of the costs scala.
I will see what makes sense and how much space I have left to tweak...

But a second point to consider: the T-34s on one side, fine, but what about the other mass produced vehicle, the Sherman - in my point of view there wouldn't be a reason to not apply the same rules to them (in US hands mainly, as other nations didn't get any amount close to the US numbers and the Shermans should be considered a bit more precious for British, e.g.)

further thoughts for and against appreciated