Japanese steam roll in China

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

I dont think that Japan could steam roll China in 1941. Japan had already been at war with China for 4 years and had suffered some serious reverses....notably 60,000 IJA troops were cut off at Taierhchwang in April 1938...and Japanese administrative problems increased exponentially as they occupied more Chinese territory. If Japan "could have" steam rolled China in 1941 then they "would have" without involving the US, Great Britain and the Netherlands in a world war.

Would they have? I'm not at all sure that would have gotten them what they needed from a resource perspective. Agree 100% that they realized the impossibility of occupying China. Not sure it was ever documented but reason would lead one to believe they wanted a negotiated settlement with Chiang.

Ichi-go had specific objectives which didn't include steam-rolling China, so I would agree with you it doesn't necessarily indicate the situation in 1941. But if the will had been there, I think they could have done it. Just saying that it probably wouldn't have accomplished their goals in China, if they were what I proposed above. It was a very complex situation.

[vaned74]

I think an easy solution to China would be much more aggressive garrison requirements for the Japanese as they occupy Chinese cities - things like Changsha requiring 500+ AV in garrison points, etc. Thus, the more the Japanese advance, the weaker the tip of the spear. This is a simple database change that can be made in the editor.

Secondly, the partisan model focuses too much I think on damaging airfields, ports, runways, resources, etc. But, oddly enough, it looks like my supply stockpiles and fuel stockpiles in affected cities don't change. Supplies, fuel etc should really be what is destroyed. Descriptions and accounts of partisans hitting rail lines, destroying supply convoys, messengers, etc. are rampant in World War II and others - partisans completely destroying an airfield (likely to be well occupied by military troops) are not so common. Partisans mostly went after easy targets.

Use the partisan model to destroy supplies (critical to maintaining any advance) and you force the Japanese to garrison the cities extensively (if the garrison requirements are increased).

[Mynok]

Not a bad concept, though requiring it for all cities might be going to far as partisan activity wasn't universal.

[vaned74]

And I guess if you really want to quiet china down you could put more extensive garrison requirements on the chinese - they actually have an incentive to garrison their cities - the chinese need as much supply generation as they can get (unlike the dutch in java or the brits in burma where by pulling out the allied player can destroy the prod facilities).

[PMCN]

I have no problem with increased garrison requirements but then I am not trying to take ground (except for the odd "dot" base) I'm just trying to hold what I have and that is brutally difficult in the face of "shock attacks" which do absurd amounts of damage even against dug in troops.

I would suggest adding a political point cost to the japanese to attack the chinese cities. That would reflect the fact the Imperial high command was not that interested in doing offensives in China.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Barb

This could be the root of "Bombardment killing thousands". When the Japs are able to buy out majority of their Artillery, tanks and air force from Kwantung (Which they never couldnt do without inviting the red bear openly) then you will see this units mauling the Chinese mercilessly. Could be considered "gamey" to buy specialist forces without balancing and mixing them with normal combat formations - i think the "normal" attitude would be to buy say Independent Mixed Brigade - containing Co of tanks, bn of artillery and 3-4 infantry battalions..

red bear openly) then you will see this units mauling the Chinese mercilessly. Could be considered "gamey" to buy specialist forces without balancing and mixing them with normal combat formations - i think the "normal" attitude would be to buy say Independent Mixed Brigade - containing Co of tanks, bn of artillery and 3-4 infantry battalions..

I don't think its that gamey , there is no way Russia would attack in 41 -42 period with Moscow - Stalingrad sucking all their resources if they did there would be no supplies.

Japanese Dvisions were low in arty so could be suplemented in fact thats what the independent arty units were for. The only issue is Arty is too effective though this will also mean later allied divs will be beasts.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

I dont think that Japan could steam roll China in 1941. Japan had already been at war with China for 4 years and had suffered some serious reverses....notably 60,000 IJA troops were cut off at Taierhchwang in April 1938...and Japanese administrative problems increased exponentially as they occupied more Chinese territory. If Japan "could have" steam rolled China in 1941 then they "would have" without involving the US, Great Britain and the Netherlands in a world war.

Would they have? I'm not at all sure that would have gotten them what they needed from a resource perspective. Agree 100% that they realized the impossibility of occupying China. Not sure it was ever documented but reason would lead one to believe they wanted a negotiated settlement with Chiang.

Ichi-go had specific objectives which didn't include steam-rolling China, so I would agree with you it doesn't necessarily indicate the situation in 1941. But if the will had been there, I think they could have done it. Just saying that it probably wouldn't have accomplished their goals in China, if they were what I proposed above. It was a very complex situation.

IIRC the objective of Ichi-go was to capture or deny use of the Chinese airfields to Allied bombers. The Japanese weren't trying to occupy the countryside, they just wanted the airfields and infrastructure networks secured.

[Mynok]

Correct. It was to capture (destroy?) airfields that heavy bombers could fly from.

[vaned74]

There is also a political/diplomatic reason why Japan, even if they could (not arguing they could), did not 'steamroll' China in 1941. Japanese actions in China and Indo-China were some of the root causes of bringing the US/Japan into conflict. The steadily increasing embargos were a US diplomatic response to Japanese aggressions in Asia.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

I dont think that Japan could steam roll China in 1941. Japan had already been at war with China for 4 years and had suffered some serious reverses....notably 60,000 IJA troops were cut off at Taierhchwang in April 1938...and Japanese administrative problems increased exponentially as they occupied more Chinese territory. If Japan "could have" steam rolled China in 1941 then they "would have" without involving the US, Great Britain and the Netherlands in a world war.

Would they have? I'm not at all sure that would have gotten them what they needed from a resource perspective. Agree 100% that they realized the impossibility of occupying China. Not sure it was ever documented but reason would lead one to believe they wanted a negotiated settlement with Chiang.

Ichi-go had specific objectives which didn't include steam-rolling China, so I would agree with you it doesn't necessarily indicate the situation in 1941. But if the will had been there, I think they could have done it. Just saying that it probably wouldn't have accomplished their goals in China, if they were what I proposed above. It was a very complex situation.

This is nonsense! Japan had no other drains on her resources between the start of the "China Incident" in 1937 and the start of the Pacific War in December of 1941. If she had a snowball's chance in HeII of conquering China it would have been done during those 4+ years. Instead she got bogged down in China, and a good case can be made that the entire reason for the Pacific War was trying to find her way out of this mess.

Any game which makes the conquest of China by the Japanese in 1942 (at the same time they were having to divert their resources to other fronts) is a fatally flawed simulation.

[Mynok]

Don't see how we are disagreeing. Steam-rolling Chinese units isn't the same as conquering China.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Don't see how we are disagreeing. Steam-rolling Chinese units isn't the same as conquering China.

Actually it is. The Japanese were making virtually no progress in China in 1940 and 41. So they pulled out resources and committed them to the Pacific War. So you are claiming that a weaker Japanese force could "steamroll" the Chinese in 1942 when a stronger one got nowhere in 1940 and 41? Stop and consider just how much sense that claim DOESN'T make...

[Mynok]

But I agree. The issue isn't whether they couldn't, but what they would commit to it. For Ichi-Go, they committed the resources. Before that, they didn't. For whatever reason.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


But I agree. The issue isn't whether they couldn't, but what they would commit to it. For Ichi-Go, they committed the resources. Before that, they didn't. For whatever reason.

This is an important point.. There was no purpose for the Japanese in taking all of China - what do they get ? Not many more resources and a big partisan headache. The only thing really of value was the railway through Changsha but Japan was a shipping nation and this wasn't obvious till they acquired Vietnam. They made some half hearted efforts at it but never thought it was critical enough to use a lot of resources.

This creates issues in games as players go and stomp Chinese units but in a lot of games they can then take possession of the country. I think AE has this ok with the swarm of small units and the garrison requirements.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

But I agree. The issue isn't whether they couldn't, but what they would commit to it. For Ichi-Go, they committed the resources. Before that, they didn't. For whatever reason.

Because they didn't have them. "Ichi-Go" occurred in 1944 under entirely different circumstances.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: bklooste
This is an important point.. There was no purpose for the Japanese in taking all of China - what do they get ? Not many more resources and a big partisan headache. The only thing really of value was the railway through Changsha but Japan was a shipping nation and this wasn't obvious till they acquired Vietnam. They made some half hearted efforts at it but never thought it was critical enough to use a lot of resources.

You are correct..., and wrong. The "China Incident" is basically the Pacific War writ small. Japan assumed that a series of smashing "victories" coupled with terrorizing the populace would force China to dissolve or seek terms (under which she would be reduced to the same conditions as Korea..., "hewers of wood and haulers of water" for the greater glory of Japan.)

The Chinese refused to cooperate and left the IJA bogged down trying to conquer and occupy a nation with 5 times Japan's population and 20 times her land mass. Basically, Japan was stuck in the "tar baby" with no rational idea of how to get untangled. Rather than the militarists accepting responsibility for their own miscalculations and stupidity, they chose to tell themselves that it was "foriegn support" propping up Chinese resistance (as if the resistance of 350 million people could be sustained by a trickle of trucks over the Burma Road.).

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Mynok

But I agree. The issue isn't whether they couldn't, but what they would commit to it. For Ichi-Go, they committed the resources. Before that, they didn't. For whatever reason.

Because they didn't have them. "Ichi-Go" occurred in 1944 under entirely different circumstances.

They chose not to have them. They chose to go for the SRA.

[Streptokok]

I just have a feeling im not playing the same game as you are guys, playing for Japs and i cant do shi_t [8|]

For example Kiukiang got attacked same moment Nanchang got attacked so I cant move more units there otherwise i loose Nan. I wait and drag 2 more units that were suposed to go to Sinyang and start trying to route Chinese troops out.
Shock attack you say is deadly?

Right...1 turn shocking (my hex, no fort bonus for allies)

Ground combat at Kiukiang (85,53)
Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 14503 troops, 88 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 422
Defending force 4774 troops, 43 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 138

Japanese adjusted assault: 646
Allied adjusted defense: 43
Japanese assault odds: 15 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
141 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Allied ground losses:
445 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 28 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 25 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Assaulting units:
18th Ind.Mixed Brigade
14th Ind.Mixed Brigade
Kyuko Naval Guard Unit
Defending units:
58th Chinese Corps

Should have won? +2 on odds calculations give a win, no?
As my signature says "No plan survives contact with the enemy"....
So we continue in hope next turn teh mighty shock attack will make allies leave in pain:

Ground combat at Kiukiang (85,53)
Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 14397 troops, 88 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 415
Defending force 4380 troops, 43 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 110

Japanese adjusted assault: 531
Allied adjusted defense: 7
Japanese assault odds: 75 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), disruption(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
95 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Allied ground losses:
332 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Assaulting units:
18th Ind.Mixed Brigade
14th Ind.Mixed Brigade
Kyuko Naval Guard Unit
Defending units:
58th Chinese Corps

Shure, nerf Japs more, they are too strong [:(]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Mynok

But I agree. The issue isn't whether they couldn't, but what they would commit to it. For Ichi-Go, they committed the resources. Before that, they didn't. For whatever reason.

Because they didn't have them. "Ichi-Go" occurred in 1944 under entirely different circumstances.

They chose not to have them. They chose to go for the SRA.

No..., they didn't have them! They had no other demands on their military resources in 1940 and most of 1941..., and they couldn't do snot! They had simply "bogged down" because they had bitten of more than they could possibly chew. Even in the 1944 timeframe of "Ichi-Go", they made no attempt to hold the ground they overran because they couldn't.

[GB68]

As far as Japan 'steamrolling' China in AE, I am only about 10 days into my first GC (scen 2) post patch and I am finding the AI is quite aggressive in China. In WitP, the AI was very cautious and defensive. In AE, I am seeing strong Chinese attacks against several cities.

I probably put myself at a slight disadvantage by mostly ignoring China in the first few days bar the odd movement here and there. I've already seen one Japanese held city fall and it looks like another one will go in the next day or two as I'm unable to reinforce there. Another two cities are under threat as well. Even Canton is being attacked! Although it is unlikely to fall, but it will be a tough fight to remove the quite susbstantial Chinese presence there.

I will be forced to make serious adjustments to hold the line at first. Steamrolling is not something I can see happening at the moment. As has been stated, the Chinese units generally are not very good, but they are plentiful. Especially, in central China. I must say, that I'm impressed with the improved AI.