Petition - pilots and exp

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

All the posting just reaffirms our resolve. keep it up.

You sure that's the message you want to give this rabid community?[:D]

[Oliver Heindorf]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Not to stifle this discussion, as it seems constructive, but we are looking at all aspects of aerial training for patch 2. Something went awry after the last patch and it has obviously affected EXP gain in individual skills. This WILL be fixed.

Zuikaku, your list is good. Many of those items are on our list. Now is the time to catch my eye with new suggestions.

thank you so much !!!! Good news ! [&o]


and thanks to the thread starter as well. really good job ! [:)]

[PeteG662]

Thanks Elf. I think Shark7 hit the primary issue on the head. Too easy at first, but missing a lot and too hard to gain experience after 1.804.
 
Pete 

[loricas]

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku
2. No exp loss when transferring pilots to reserve pool or from reserve pool. the exception woul'd be only in case if pilots are being drawn to squadron they have not been trained for: Eg. fighter pilot drawn into bomber squadron

agree

3. Add one more button into training screen- DEFENSIVE, so we can train pilots faster in defensive skills

i think that the new pilot sistem require a change of training mission: actually the skill trained depend on mission and quote i think that the choice must be only mission ie: mission training specific skill so training defensive or training torpedo bomb or low bombardament...this can be a more immediate learning of training sistem snd effect..now the only way is test mission and quote what skill affect

4. every pilot can be sent into reserve pool to become reserve) at any time by clicking it in the pilot roster (similar to sending pilots to training command).

with a big delay in time maybe good. but this risk to have all elite pilot in front squadrons and only weak in rear so it may be done..but not without high cost

5. Pilots gains individuall skils in combat faster then in training. Especially to those skills they are using. So, fighter pilot avoids other fighters 3 times in one combat he should get some defensive skills.

i don't agree: for me training is focused in learning skill but in combat i think that if there is a probability (not sure and indipendent on the number of time a action are made: if i'm football player the fact that i make 3 touchdown don't mean that my touchdown skill was better next time i play

6. Ace pilots should have noticeable general and individual skill gains after every kill and especially for multiple kills in one mission. Now that is not a case. I have some pilots with 20 kills. while their general exp is rising significally, their individuall skills do not. So, my top ace have air skill 62 and defensive skill 54 - the same as at the beginning of the war while he had no kills at all. That is just very wrong [:@]

so in your idea Totti (a italian soccer player) that have made 216 goal have now a 216 goleador skill? it' s mad: there are a lot of low series player that have made a lot more goal than Totti so why they don't play in a top level team?

7. Training can not give skill level over 70

in my opinion all pilot must have a not know or only know when reach max skill,not the same for all (not all pilot may become hartmann) and a max from training and a max for combat

1. Increase speed of on map training. It was too fast before latest patch, but now is way too slow and useless.

for RAF in WWII need a year of training (off map) and a year of operative training (in map) in squadrons to have a average fighter pilot. how much game and how much of pilot have reach a year of play?

only my two cent

[Central Blue]

If you are playing the Japanese, I think there probably ought to be problems with training, unless you are playing an alt-history type scenario.

It isn't hard to read about the training problems they had during the war after they ran out of their first echelon. I read some where today that they lost 18k out of 24k pilots -- of course some of those were kamikazes.

In gamer terms (not this particular game) they didn't invest in pilot training research before the war.

And your math on how much it costs to train a pilot, explains why the allies put so much effort into recovering their pilots.

BTW, I don't understand the math of how many sorties you flew. Over what period of time was this accomplished? And were they only training, or were they also in combat? Also be curious to know what percentage of them were on training, and what their fatigue was like -- not that it will likely change much, per my first paragraph. But maybe the devs will take pity on the Japanese FB's

ORIGINAL: vaned74

Central Blue - can you post more details about how you are achieving this success. I tried the technique in the other thread you posted and had no luck.

Effectively I ran 413 training sorties in one group under the most excellent leader (leadership, inspiration 65ish) I could find as well as changed the air hq leader to a good one and in those 413 sorties the pilots gained a total of 13 general xp points (spread out among about 6 pilots for an average gain in the group of like 0.3 xp for 1.5 weeks). This means that the gain rate per sortie is ca 1 xp point per 33 training flights. So I figure those 30-35 xp pilots will take about 660 flights to get up to about 55 xp.

So for a modestly trained pilot (general XP 55) that's one year in flight school plus about 600 training flights and then he can start specific skills training. Works out to be about 30-36 months in training before he can start specialist skills training. Total expense 60 heavy industry points (for Japan - the equivalent of 1.5 assembled single engine planes) representing about 600 tons of resources, 60 tons of fuel, and about 600 tons of supplies for the training missions for one pilot. Seems just a little off...

[vaned74]

Understand the issue of Japanese training historically, that's not the point. I don't have a dog in the hunt one way or the other. I am playing the Japanese in one game, but, would love another as the Allies. No doubt the Allies had a better recovery process. The better Allied training program is reflected in the higher initial experience of Allied pilots coming out of the ordinary training schools.

I also ran this training some squadrons of P40s on the west coast and the same result. Settings were 90% train, general training. Fatigue levels appeared to get up to 13-20 fatigue and hover there - I loaded the squadrons with an additional 1/3 pilots (the max allowed - ie size 12 means 16 pilots in) so I guess that helps keep the fatigue at a fairly constant level.

The 18K of 24K pilots lost includes kamikazes I am quite certain and maybe ordinary combat losses.

I don't want the devs taking pity on JFBs...I'd just like to see it work or if you have a training method that seems to work, I'd love to see some data and settings.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Bravo, appears Zuikaku has touched on something that in fact needs attention.

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Not to stifle this discussion, as it seems constructive, but we are looking at all aspects of aerial training for patch 2. Something went awry after the last patch and it has obviously affected EXP gain in individual skills. This WILL be fixed.

Zuikaku, you list is good. Many of those items are on our list. Now is the time to catch my eye with new suggestions.

Not really. We have been following these developments and have had Pilot training identified as a whole for patch improvements since release. It was a late addition to the gold build, and is a top priority for polishing.

All the posting just reaffirms our resolve. keep it up.

Thanks for your efforts.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

5. Pilots gains individuall skils in combat faster then in training. Especially to those skills they are using. So, fighter pilot avoids other fighters 3 times in one combat he should get some defensive skills.

not sure i agree here. IMO, training should increase skills and combat should increase experience - period. training to me is performing something new in a controlled environment - i would imagine "trying something new" in a combat situation would probably end up badly most of the time. i'm not sure exactly how the current model works, but i can envision experience coming into play more on the "group" dynamics of an air engagement, i.e. getting the bounce, successfully intercepting with a coordinated defense, finding the target, staying with the bombers if escorting, etc. the individual skills i would think would come into the equation for every little machine gun firing graphic or every bomb/torp dropped, etc.

good to see it's being discussed...

[Oldguard1970]

Hi Sheytan,

This thread started on 9/20. Within a day, The Elf posted a message acknowledging the problem. That's mighty responsive in my book.

BTW, I agree that it is important for customers to be kept aware of the situation. I think TheElf and Matrix in general do a fine job of that.

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Thats a rather arbitrary response. How about you limit yourself to known issues you are in fact looking to fix? Simple enough?

By the way you do realise I am a customer correct?

Edited to add the following, In case you didnt notice, no one here is bashing the "failings" of the AE model. See where im going? But rather, a bit more transparency regarding what is going to be addressed in future, see where im going here? I suspect most people here very much enjoy the game as is, want to see it improved, and have nothing but praise for the folks that made this gem. See where im going again?

Dont take my comments personally, all you can do is improve a already outstanding game. Just introduce a bit more clarity on what you do or do not plan to fix in future as opposed to having thread discussions "discover" them, then admit you are looking into it.

Sorry if I offended you, or presumed upon your time to reply to this discussion about lack of EXP gain via combat. [;)]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Let me rephrase, IF you are aware of problems such as the lack of exp gain for example via combat, then why not post...WE ARE AWARE? In a thread topic, so matters such as this do not become a discussion about the problems related to specific issues such as the above mentioned example.

You stated expo facto in this thread you are aware, why not do so in a thread of known issues instead of having the customers debate IF there is in fact a problem? See where im going here?

Should I post all the things I am aware of in order to head off this sort of discussion, cuz that would be a lot of posts. Or, should I just work toward fixing things and reply to posts like this one in my spare time?

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

If you are playing the Japanese, I think there probably ought to be problems with training, unless you are playing an alt-history type scenario.

The player should be able to make decisions the Japanese didn't but COULD have, such as assign veteran pilots to training command.

[Rob Brennan UK]

I was all for signing Zuikaku's original ideas (most of them anyway).

But now that the elf has said that its being adressed in the next patch, i have supreme confidence that we will get a mended version for training/combat exp as the folks behind this game are without doubt some of the most responsive devs i've ever encountered. No doubt some ppl won't like the next change in its entireity but can't please all the people all the time.

Hats off to all involved and all the people who take time to comment and bring thier own ideas to the discussion.

(end suck up rant [:D])

[Central Blue]

I get it now.

Let's set the wayback machine to when I first noticed my guys in combat weren't learning very much. I assumed it was a feature not a bug. I figured I didn't know much about how to train a pilot.

So... Why no training just from flying in combat? I thinks to myself, that a guy that only has 30 per cent training may just be repeating the school rule, and staying out of trouble, until he gets shot down, or gets lucky. At that point, he has a lot more hours in a trainer than the combat machine he is now flying. Shooting down a bomber is not the same thing as teaching yourself deflection gunnery or the Thach weave.

So... what can you teach a guy that is only 30% trained? Not much more than the basics in my experience. When can you start teaching the really fun stuff? When there aren't any knuckleheads under 50% holding the squadron back.

For those fighter guys on the West Coast -- or anywhere out of combat -- try them at 6000k and half of their nominal range. Even with extra pilots, I only train at 60 to 70%. I like to keep the fatigue under ten. Nobody learns a lot when they are tired. If I have a 2-1 pilot plane ratio then I will train at 80-90%.

Leave them in general training forever. Don't even look if you can't stand to see how many days it takes. However, for my units that are training well, it isn't unusual for the pilots that flew the previous day to pick up points in three categories.

I find I am having better like with the Navy and Marines than with the USAAF on the west coast. But my USAAF units in the Northwest are a long way from any HQ, and typically start lower, so have further to go. I am only guessing that it relates to leaders and HQ's because the USAAF units that are training well have some of the few good available leaders, and are sitting on their own command.

For fighters near where combat could occur, it's around 40% CAP, and 20-30% training depending on fatigue. I also keep them on short leashes, except for special events, like a long range cap mission to cover ships. These guys only seem to pick up air skill in addition to experience.

It's April 8 in my game, and I have only been working on this since around March 13. It seems to work pretty well for the fighters. I am still experimenting with the other stuff. My F-4 Lightnings really seem to love training at 20k, with a range of 4. So it feels like the capabilities of their current and upgrade planes, do seem to have some influence on training, at least what they like to pick up while they are on general training. Even most of my groups in China have now made it to the mid-40's

BTW, I started on the beta patch, and haven't seen any harm from the official release and hotfix that can't also be attributed to gains coming slower the higher you get.

ORIGINAL: vaned74

Understand the issue of Japanese training historically, that's not the point. I don't have a dog in the hunt one way or the other. I am playing the Japanese in one game, but, would love another as the Allies. No doubt the Allies had a better recovery process. The better Allied training program is reflected in the higher initial experience of Allied pilots coming out of the ordinary training schools.

I also ran this training some squadrons of P40s on the west coast and the same result. Settings were 90% train, general training. Fatigue levels appeared to get up to 13-20 fatigue and hover there - I loaded the squadrons with an additional 1/3 pilots (the max allowed - ie size 12 means 16 pilots in) so I guess that helps keep the fatigue at a fairly constant level.

The 18K of 24K pilots lost includes kamikazes I am quite certain and maybe ordinary combat losses.

I don't want the devs taking pity on JFBs...I'd just like to see it work or if you have a training method that seems to work, I'd love to see some data and settings.

[Central Blue]

I don't care so much about moving the leaders. But that sort of choice would/could mean a commitment to using more resources on training than was historically the case, or what's the point? More hours in the air are going to cost more gas, whomever is training.

But for those that are into it, it could be a toggle like damage control or torpedos. Followed by some decision about committing more or less resources.

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

If you are playing the Japanese, I think there probably ought to be problems with training, unless you are playing an alt-history type scenario.

The player should be able to make decisions the Japanese didn't but COULD have, such as assign veteran pilots to training command.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

5. Pilots gains individuall skils in combat faster then in training. Especially to those skills they are using. So, fighter pilot avoids other fighters 3 times in one combat he should get some defensive skills.

not sure i agree here. IMO, training should increase skills and combat should increase experience - period. training to me is performing something new in a controlled environment - i would imagine "trying something new" in a combat situation would probably end up badly most of the time. i'm not sure exactly how the current model works, but i can envision experience coming into play more on the "group" dynamics of an air engagement, i.e. getting the bounce, successfully intercepting with a coordinated defense, finding the target, staying with the bombers if escorting, etc. the individual skills i would think would come into the equation for every little machine gun firing graphic or every bomb/torp dropped, etc.

good to see it's being discussed...

But the things you describe as experience from combat are also done in training. I think that training should also increase experience, although much more slowly at higher levels. Combat should increase experience at the higher levels faster than does training.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

5. Pilots gains individuall skils in combat faster then in training. Especially to those skills they are using. So, fighter pilot avoids other fighters 3 times in one combat he should get some defensive skills.

not sure i agree here. IMO, training should increase skills and combat should increase experience - period. training to me is performing something new in a controlled environment - i would imagine "trying something new" in a combat situation would probably end up badly most of the time. i'm not sure exactly how the current model works, but i can envision experience coming into play more on the "group" dynamics of an air engagement, i.e. getting the bounce, successfully intercepting with a coordinated defense, finding the target, staying with the bombers if escorting, etc. the individual skills i would think would come into the equation for every little machine gun firing graphic or every bomb/torp dropped, etc.

good to see it's being discussed...

But the things you describe as experience from combat are also done in training. I think that training should also increase experience, although much more slowly at higher levels. Combat should increase experience at the higher levels faster than does training.

[CV Zuikaku]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

5. Pilots gains individuall skils in combat faster then in training. Especially to those skills they are using. So, fighter pilot avoids other fighters 3 times in one combat he should get some defensive skills.

not sure i agree here. IMO, training should increase skills and combat should increase experience - period. training to me is performing something new in a controlled environment - i would imagine "trying something new" in a combat situation would probably end up badly most of the time. i'm not sure exactly how the current model works, but i can envision experience coming into play more on the "group" dynamics of an air engagement, i.e. getting the bounce, successfully intercepting with a coordinated defense, finding the target, staying with the bombers if escorting, etc. the individual skills i would think would come into the equation for every little machine gun firing graphic or every bomb/torp dropped, etc.

good to see it's being discussed...

So, in your opinnion (and some other guys) Chuck Yeager, Saburo Sakai and Hans J. Marseilles learned nothing in combat? They were allways flying arround like they told them in school- didn't bother to improve anything or adapt tactics to new situatin on field?! [X(] they neither improved gunnery, or flying or tacticc or anything at all?! What they knewed from school was the ultimate knowledge? [&:] [8|] And no, Loricas, you can not compare soccer players and fighter pilots in life and death situations. I do not opt that after 10 kills pilot air and def skills have to be somewhere near 99. but those skills should improve somewhat faster until they reach 80. and after that there HAVE TO BE CHANCE (maybe minor, but it must exist) od improving after every combat or kill or evasive action.
And I'm not talking about fighters only- every bomber pilot that scores a hit MUST HAVE a chance (a chance, does not automatically improve skill) to improve bombing skills.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

I don't care so much about moving the leaders. But that sort of choice would/could mean a commitment to using more resources on training than was historically the case, or what's the point? More hours in the air are going to cost more gas, whomever is training.

But for those that are into it, it could be a toggle like damage control or torpedos. Followed by some decision about committing more or less resources.

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

If you are playing the Japanese, I think there probably ought to be problems with training, unless you are playing an alt-history type scenario.

The player should be able to make decisions the Japanese didn't but COULD have, such as assign veteran pilots to training command.

What use is a toggle? Resource commitment already exists: the supplies it will cost to do the training mission.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

5. Pilots gains individuall skils in combat faster then in training. Especially to those skills they are using. So, fighter pilot avoids other fighters 3 times in one combat he should get some defensive skills.

not sure i agree here. IMO, training should increase skills and combat should increase experience - period. training to me is performing something new in a controlled environment - i would imagine "trying something new" in a combat situation would probably end up badly most of the time. i'm not sure exactly how the current model works, but i can envision experience coming into play more on the "group" dynamics of an air engagement, i.e. getting the bounce, successfully intercepting with a coordinated defense, finding the target, staying with the bombers if escorting, etc. the individual skills i would think would come into the equation for every little machine gun firing graphic or every bomb/torp dropped, etc.

good to see it's being discussed...

But the things you describe as experience from combat are also done in training. I think that training should also increase experience, although much more slowly at higher levels. Combat should increase experience at the higher levels faster than does training.

i will admit that i may be talking out of my arse, since i don't completely understand the experience/training/skills model in the code for this game...but then, very few of us on this forum do...

[Czert]

I support all of this (I planing to buy AE in long term - currently money issue), looking every 2-3 days on this forum, I add one wish to this. You can chose from which pool you get new pilot(s) - from reserves/trained pool. To prevent very simple think - you sent pilot to reserves, get new pilot..from reserves [:D]. And this will IMO reduce nano-mamgmet - you can still have veteran squads as war progres wwithout MTM (mogami training metod)- you will siply fill these squads only from reserve pool - full of good pilots (or last better than trained) and still have special training squadrons for operational training.

and here is one my idea.
And it will be interesing if you can transfrom some squadron to "advanced/operational traing squadrons" - this willl take some time to transform to this squad from normal.
Bonus - pilots in these will get exps/skills at increased rate than in normal squads. Malus - these squads cant preform any combat mission att all, unless they are transformed/reverted back to normal units.

[Richard III]

I also never understood the training/experience coding routines, but it felt just fine in WITP and I don`t recall any B & M about it back then.

Why can`t we just go back to that setup ???