Aircraft R&D

[Swenslim]

ORIGINAL:  vaned74
As Pompack said, the key is the number of factories repaired.  A few key numbers come to play to make Damian's test results very hard to actually bring into play in a real game (which I suspect is what the designers intended).
(1)  repairing factories for which the target plane is way in the future is very difficult.  eg - I set up a test starting in Dec, 1941 with 17 factories each with 20 damaged planes for Ki-84-1r. At the end of 30 days, only 11 points of production had been repaired.  This is a repair rate of 0.6 factories/day for 340 factories being worked on - ie the repair rate for a plane that far out is 0.0017 per day thus meaning a size 30 factory would take about 17,000 days to fully repair. 
(2)  if any part of a factory is damaged, it doesn't contribute to R&D as best I can tell.  This exacerbates the repair rate in #1 above
(3)  when you expand a factory, it doubles - thus, while you may be able to get a bunch of functioning 2,3,4 plane size factories doing R&D relatively quickly - if you expand them again to get more R&D you are shutting off your current R&D (per #2 above) for a long time to repair your doubling in size.
Now the repair rate may increase as you get closer to scheduled availability of the plane - I think it does based on my game experience in July, 1942 in my PBEM.
So JFBs don't get your hopes way up to get that Ki-84-1r frank in 1942...or 1943...or likely not even 1944.  I think this system is probably working as intended, early to tell though.

Hm,  why did you decide that not fully repaired R&D factorys does not contribute to research pool ? If damaged plants produce planes, I think same with R&D.

Now little survey, in my two PBEM games I have two different reuslts. I think very  important is a good dice at start of repairing. If you factory quickly repaired 1-3 points than it will faster *produce* researched plane and will repair self.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: vaned74


(2)  the engines don't magically become available as a result of airframe availability; wasn't this way in WitP either.  so the japanese advancement through R&D is further complicated in AE due to the multiplicity of engine types, once again probably working as intended - keeps the player from stockpiling a bunch of engines in the first part of war that somehow work to provide for both the A6M2 and the Ki-84 Frank.

In WITP every engine is available just from day one until the last day of the war. You were able to build whatever engine you wanted.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: vaned74


(2)  the engines don't magically become available as a result of airframe availability; wasn't this way in WitP either.  so the japanese advancement through R&D is further complicated in AE due to the multiplicity of engine types, once again probably working as intended - keeps the player from stockpiling a bunch of engines in the first part of war that somehow work to provide for both the A6M2 and the Ki-84 Frank.

In WITP every engine is available just from day one until the last day of the war. You were able to build whatever engine you wanted.

Castor, not to muddy the waters -- In stock "yes", BUT I thought that CHS (or another mod iirc) had some engines NOT avail from Day1

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

ORIGINAL:  vaned74
As Pompack said, the key is the number of factories repaired.  A few key numbers come to play to make Damian's test results very hard to actually bring into play in a real game (which I suspect is what the designers intended).
(1)  repairing factories for which the target plane is way in the future is very difficult.  eg - I set up a test starting in Dec, 1941 with 17 factories each with 20 damaged planes for Ki-84-1r. At the end of 30 days, only 11 points of production had been repaired.  This is a repair rate of 0.6 factories/day for 340 factories being worked on - ie the repair rate for a plane that far out is 0.0017 per day thus meaning a size 30 factory would take about 17,000 days to fully repair. 
(2)  if any part of a factory is damaged, it doesn't contribute to R&D as best I can tell.  This exacerbates the repair rate in #1 above
(3)  when you expand a factory, it doubles - thus, while you may be able to get a bunch of functioning 2,3,4 plane size factories doing R&D relatively quickly - if you expand them again to get more R&D you are shutting off your current R&D (per #2 above) for a long time to repair your doubling in size.
Now the repair rate may increase as you get closer to scheduled availability of the plane - I think it does based on my game experience in July, 1942 in my PBEM.
So JFBs don't get your hopes way up to get that Ki-84-1r frank in 1942...or 1943...or likely not even 1944.  I think this system is probably working as intended, early to tell though.

Hm,  why did you decide that not fully repaired R&D factorys does not contribute to research pool ? If damaged plants produce planes, I think same with R&D.

Now little survey, in my two PBEM games I have two different reuslts. I think very  important is a good dice at start of repairing. If you factory quickly repaired 1-3 points than it will faster *produce* researched plane and will repair self.

Did you even read my analysis ? Swenslim, not to be too pointed but you are wrong about R&D factories contributing ...

[guctony]

Above all

I like to ask question of the system of R&D is abstraction of what.

If we fully understand this it will make more sense to deal with its mathematic side of the problem.

I really dont know what do we abstract when we turn an R&D factory production to something else. First of all do we all agree that any R&D factory does not exist at the start of the war. I assume they are in the process of construction. So initially when we change the type of plane we dont change anything physically but we change how the factory process will be arranged in future. Can somebody agree on that.
Secondly. Do we assume that there is a design process of the planes, prototype phase and final pre-production and mass production phase. So can anyone define these phases according to what we do in game to speed up the production.

Regards

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: vaned74


(2)  the engines don't magically become available as a result of airframe availability; wasn't this way in WitP either.  so the japanese advancement through R&D is further complicated in AE due to the multiplicity of engine types, once again probably working as intended - keeps the player from stockpiling a bunch of engines in the first part of war that somehow work to provide for both the A6M2 and the Ki-84 Frank.

In WITP every engine is available just from day one until the last day of the war. You were able to build whatever engine you wanted.

Castor, not to muddy the waters -- In stock "yes", BUT I thought that CHS (or another mod iirc) had some engines NOT avail from Day1

yeah, I was only speaking about stock WITP, no clue about CHS, RHS or other mods with "special" engines.

[Swenslim]

Ok, in my PBEM I reached 2 april of 1942...only 4 month of war. I didnt moved any PLANE research but I moved in ENGINE research. Do they have same system of research or engines are researching faster ?
 
I asking because I am already producning Aichi-60 engine !!! At the start of game I had 3 plants fully repaired with total 125 engines per month. Day of antry of Aichi-60 is October 1942 (10/42).
My R&D plants converted to production plants on 23 March...almost 6 !!! month before initial date.
 
Any comments ?

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

Ok, in my PBEM I reached 2 april of 1942...only 4 month of war. I didnt moved any PLANE research but I moved in ENGINE research. Do they have same system of research or engines are researching faster ?

I asking because I am already producning Aichi-60 engine !!! At the start of game I had 3 plants fully repaired with total 125 engines per month. Day of antry of Aichi-60 is October 1942 (10/42).
My R&D plants converted to production plants on 23 March...almost 6 !!! month before initial date.

Any comments ?

WOW! <how's that for a comment? >

[Swenslim]

bad comment [:-]

[PaxMondo]

So, how did you get them to move so far forward?

[Swenslim]

That is what I am asking ! From what I know researched can be moved 1 month for 100 points. Lets imagine that I produced full 125 * 3,5 month = 375-400 points. So researched could moved 3-4 months maximum , but it had moved 6 months ! How is that possible ?

[Nemo121]

Just to be clear on this.... I've seen proof in-game of what Damian says wherein multiple small factories brought a plane type into action several years early. ( Yes, years not months ).
&nbsp;
Of course if people choose to disregard objective reality then that's their choice but they shouldn't wonder then why they remain perplexed.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Just to be clear on this.... I've seen proof in-game of what Damian says wherein multiple small factories brought a plane type into action several years early. ( Yes, years not months ).

Of course if people choose to disregard objective reality then that's their choice but they shouldn't wonder then why they remain perplexed.

While it is true you can bring planes in months/years early, in all fairness I was using a loophole in the witp code, which has been fixed for AE... but nonetheless R&D is not limited by time.

[Nemo121]

Aye, my point is that it is possible and people who are naysaying it are probably doing so in ignorance of the fact that you found the loophole they later fixed about aircraft R&D. As such I'd listen to you when you say something about R&D