loading every file

[Marshall Ellis]

Not today.
I'm not real sure how I could go with less files (One file per player per phase) without hampering viewable info.
At this point, I'm saying no-can-do but if a method hits me in the face then I will always look at it...

[borner]

So there is no way to simply load the previous file to your turn and run the game from that point even if you are willing to go without a little information on what happened? that is disappointing to hear

[NeverMan]

I still don't undersand why you can't just pack all the turns into one file!?

You would still be able to go through each persons turn and you'd only have to download one file, of course, that file would be bigger, but if it was auto-compressed.....

[Marshall Ellis]

Everybody loads one file per phase so how would a one file approach help? You still have to load one file per phase per player?

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Everybody loads one file per phase so how would a one file approach help? You still have to load one file per phase per player?

It's not the "loading" that is the problem, it's all the "file management", if each player's turn was packed into one file it would significantly reduce the "file management".

You could still "load" each player's turn using one file. Totally possible, like I mentioned earlier.

[Jimmer]

I still maintain that this is going to cause a lot of work. From the start of the game, here's how it would work. I'm going to use the EiA phase ordering, because I don't have a copy of the EiANW rules here. For this purpose, it makes no difference. I will be abbreviating nations by the first letter of their name.
 
Jan Diplo
7 files will be created, with data from the players being added to the 7 files such that they look like this. Note that these are created after the phase of the phasing player is complete, adding that phasing player's turn data to the file.
 
The phaseing player is the nation whose letter is on the right side of the data string:
 
F data
FR data
FRT data
FRTA data
FRTAP data
FRTAPG data
FRTAPGS data
 
In Jan reinforcement, more files are created:
 
FRTAPGSS data
FRTAPGSSG data
FRTAPGSSGP data
FRTAPGSSGPA data
FRTAPGSSGPAT data
RTAPGSSGPATR data
TAPGSSGPATRF data
 
Note that the French data could be removed (line 6) once the Russians finish, because all in-betwen phases are then complete. Not so the Russian data, because France still needed that. In general, the data for any previous player-phase must be kept until the player just prior to the player whose data is at the left of the string. But, WHICH player that player is changes every player-phase!
 
The table of "data included" becomes monstrously complex at this point, because the game has to calculate which player's data can be removed from the file (if any) after every player's phase. Always there are a minimum of 12 chunks of data after this phase.
 
However, there IS a way to get around this problem. If ALL phases for ALL players for two whole months are kept in the file, then the above idea will work without having to calculate which collection of data is to be kept and which discarded. At the very end of every month, the game can remove the previous month's data completely. This would work because the computer would never have to figure out which data to keep and which to toss, except by fixed date markers.
 
There's a drawback, though: This file will be HUGE, even if zipped, unless there is a lot of white space or reptition between different player-phase data collections. The file, with this compromise installed, would have anywhere from 28 to 63 complete sets of player-phase data files.
 
If this solution is NOT implemented, then a table will need to be generated containing which player-phase data sub-files need to be present FOR EVERY PLAYER-PHASE possible. Furthermore, the game would have to force a backup on the host's system every phase, else a great deal of play time could be lost.

[NeverMan]

Jimmer,

How is this different from the queue I suggested that you said wouldn't work!?

[Skanvak]

Everybody loads one file per phase so how would a one file approach help? You still have to load one file per phase per player?

The idea is to load file one time when it is our turn to play. What people are disturbing is that they receive and load file and do nothing after. May be the number of file is not important, and only a trick that make the program load all previously not loaded file itself without asking the player would be sufficient.

[Marshall Ellis]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Everybody loads one file per phase so how would a one file approach help? You still have to load one file per phase per player?

The idea is to load file one time when is is our turn to play. What people are disturbing is that they receive and load file and do nothing after. May be the number of file is not important, and only a trick that make the program load all previously not loaded file itself without asking the player would be sufficient.

We will be closer to this in 1.08!

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Jimmer,

How is this different from the queue I suggested that you said wouldn't work!?

Past the first two phases, it's a different file every time. What my post shows is what would have to go into that file at each player-phase. You can't just take the file from the guy before you and tack your stuff onto the end of it. Otherwise, it would very quickly become too large to send via email. You have to figure out how far back the data is needed. But, those calculations are not trivial. If you don't believe that, try adding just the next 2 phases of the first month and one more month to what I posted.

The "simple" solution to that his to keep a certain fixed number of entries in the file, and have the local copy of the game ignore all of the ones that are not needed by that player at that point in time. However, this will make the file larger than calculating the list each time.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak
The idea is to load file one time when it is our turn to play. What people are disturbing is that they receive and load file and do nothing after. May be the number of file is not important, and only a trick that make the program load all previously not loaded file itself without asking the player would be sufficient.

Agreed.

Marshall, there is an analogue to this that happened once before. Originally, when you clicked the button for the next turn, it prompted you to tell you whose turn it was (with game graphics) and, after you replied, it would present you with a Windows dialog asking for the file name. I suggested you remove one of the two prompts, and you did.

What we're asking for here is a way to do that with multiple files at once. Maybe an example will help:

Let's assume you are using my ease-of-coding/management suggestion and that two full months worth of data are present in the file. It's March 1805, at the end of econ, and all of both February and March are in the most recent file. At the very end of March, the game would truncate the file such that all of March is present, but not February. So, at this point, there are 35 sub-files in this monolithic file. I'll call this file 35 for brevity.

The first player in diplo starts his turn by loading the file (let's ignore the details right now; it's the later players who are of interest). There are now 36 sub-files. I'll call this the file 36, for brevity.

Player two loads in the file from player 1, does his turn, and posts the file. There are now 37 sub-files. I'll call it the file 37, and so on below.

Players 3 and 5 check out the web site and download the file. Player 3 takes his turn, puts data into the file, now we have 38 pieces of data, file 38.

Player 4 loads in file 38, does his turn, and outputs file 39.

Stop there, and return to player 5. Player 5 grabbed 37 file. I did not state whether he loaded it or not, and will deal with that now.

Let's say that, while he downloaded 37 file, he didn't do anything with file 37. That would make file 37 obsolete. But, he has both 37 and 39 in the folder. The game should check the latest file and load in the pieces of data added to the end of files 36, 37, 38, and 39. This should be done all with one mouse-click (or, two, if you decide to offer a confirmation box).

On the other hand, let's say player 5 loaded in the data from entries 36 and 37 when he downloaded the file. Now, the game only needs 38 and 39 from the most recent file.

In either case, the action the game peformed is this:

0) Player clicks the button to enter turn files.
1) Open the latest file.
2) Figure out at what point this game is up to, chronologically. In the first example, it has loaded 35. In the second, 37.
3) Calculate which data entries are newer. In the first example, that would be all of 36-39. In the second example, only entries 38-39 are needed.
4) Game loads the correct list of files, all at once, bringing the local game up to date.

Notice that this is EXACTLY the same as how we do it now, with two exceptions:

First, the files are all being handled in a single monolithic data file, rather than up to 13 individual player-phase files.

Second, the game is loading into itself (locally) all of the player-phase files at once, rather than one at a time.

I think what we are saying is that we would like both of these. However, you CAN do them separately, the second one first. Here's how:

The game proceeds as normal. Nothing changes. So, on my turn, I have from 1 to 12 phase-files from the other players to load (depending on where I am in the order and where I was before). Let's use France in the reinforcement phase, since that makes the biggest swing.

France needs to load turn files from all 6 other players for diplomacy, and again all 6 files for reinforcement. Currently, that would mean I, as France, would click that button 12 times, after I had loaded the 12 files for the phases between my last phase done and the current one (France goes first in diplo -- if my memory is wrong, change the names; it's not important).

Change number 2 would simply be that when I click the button, all 12 files load all at once, rather than having to mash the button 12 times.

Now, the "in-between" issue comes up. Let's say I downloaded the first 5 files a few days earlier and looked over the situations on the map. Well, I would have done 5 of my clicks then, and would have to do 7 more now.

With the change, I would click once the first time (5 files) and once again the second time (7 more files).

So, change #2 becomes nearly trivial to implement. All you do is load every file you can find in the commin folder, in order, whenever the button is clicked.

But, what if I wanted to see the first guy's move (ignore the fact that I can't see his diplo until it's all over -- this is an example)? The way it is now, I just load the one file after the player posts it. I can do them one at a time.

With the new model I wouldn't have that choice. BUT, the code COULD prompt before loading in all 12 files (assuming I waited the max time), and ask me how far to go forward from the start data. The default could be "all". Or, I can choose to load some number of files less than 12 (presumably by name of nation, not by number).

Sound OK?

IF the last stuff above is implemented, it's only a short distance (coding wise) between that and having all of the sub-files be in one monolithic file. The biggest issue would probably be size.

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Jimmer,

How is this different from the queue I suggested that you said wouldn't work!?

Past the first two phases, it's a different file every time. What my post shows is what would have to go into that file at each player-phase. You can't just take the file from the guy before you and tack your stuff onto the end of it. Otherwise, it would very quickly become too large to send via email. You have to figure out how far back the data is needed. But, those calculations are not trivial. If you don't believe that, try adding just the next 2 phases of the first month and one more month to what I posted.

The "simple" solution to that his to keep a certain fixed number of entries in the file, and have the local copy of the game ignore all of the ones that are not needed by that player at that point in time. However, this will make the file larger than calculating the list each time.

Oh, so you didn't read my posts before, ok, thanks.

[borner]

so marshall, what was the final answer here? As prussia, I just had to spend over 10 minutes loading phases that i really had no interest in. ( and any information about what happened should be in the game log anyway). Why can a feature not be added to allow a player to go forward from the latest file if they choose, or load each one if a player wants to do that? I think it would make things much more enjoyable for some players. I have been in games that have had people drop due to this. thanks.

[DCWhitworth]

I'm puzzled why this should take you ten minutes ? I could expect to do this in considerably shorter time including downloading the files.

[borner]

first, I do not have a lighting fast computer... then I have to log into the game's site, Load 12+ files one by one, unzip them, save them to my game file, then pull the game and run each one after I get them all saved.

[DCWhitworth]

ORIGINAL: borner
first, I do not have a lighting fast computer... then I have to log into the game's site, Load 12+ files one by one, unzip them, save them to my game file, then pull the game and run each one after I get them all saved.

Well my computer is pretty run of the mill as is my internet connection. One thing I have improved upon is unzipping, check out this thread I posted some time back http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1955051, this takes a lot of the drudgery out of things. The only real delay is now actually downloading the files. Don't forget that when loading the files you can dismiss the banner pages between each file by hitting return so you can click the load button and hit return repeatedly and load all the files in seconds.

[borner]

back to the base question, why is that needed? why can the game not go on from the latest file?

[Marshall Ellis]

Every player has to load one turn file each turn. A one file rotation scheme would not permit people to see progress/result from other turns.

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Every player has to load one turn file each turn. A one file rotation scheme would not permit people to see progress/result from other turns.

Again, this is easily worked around.

Pack the turns into one file, from the last time the player went. This was talked about ad nasuem in this thread and this excuse Marshall is not an excuse at all.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Every player has to load one turn file each turn. A one file rotation scheme would not permit people to see progress/result from other turns.

Again, this is easily worked around.

Pack the turns into one file, from the last time the player went. This was talked about ad nasuem in this thread and this excuse Marshall is not an excuse at all.

Yet it appears you want to keep rehashing this. Just because you say something is "easy" does not make it a fact. Marshall understands this code better than anyone. So if this was as easy to implement as you say. Wouldn't you think he would add it?

Just a guess, but more likely is that he looked at this and it is more invloved (if possible at alll) and would use resources he feels are better allocated to other tasks with a higher priority that the players want.

Happy Holidays!!!