Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund???

[E]

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, if this new value is the correct Historical value then we're done. If it is not, then I was requesting that a change to the correct Historical value should be considered.

I prefer to play a Historical Simulation Strategy Game with equipment that has Historical Capabilities. In this way I can attempt "What if" strategies using the same equipment that was actually available.

Hear, hear!

[HMSWarspite]

You have to bear in mind that some consequences are not modelled. E.g (with a not terribly relevant game, but very real Life example) AI Mk10 (centimetric) radar was not allowed over Enemy territory for years after its in service date because of the risk of giving the magnetron technology to the Germans. The game would have not effect for any Mk10 aircraft beinbg shot down, and thus allowing the use of such aircraft unrestricted is unhistorical. Now, if the Germans got a random advance to centrimetric radar availabilty date every time a Mk10 radar aircraft was shot down over german territory (say), then you could allow the choice of how and when to use them to the allied player. If you dont model any effect for the Germans, other restrictions might be appropriate... (like restricted range, straight bans from use, not having them in the game in the first place, etc)

See the point?

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

looks like we will be losing more stuff

192 Squadron should be going, maybe one or more of the Welli elints

only elint mission so far, I can track, was to Essen, so don't help

HARD_Sarge;

Similar to the thread about the Fighter Sweeps, eh? [:D]

TS

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

You have to bear in mind that some consequences are not modelled. E.g (with a not terribly relevant game, but very real Life example) AI Mk10 (centimetric) radar was not allowed over Enemy territory for years after its in service date because of the risk of giving the magnetron technology to the Germans. The game would have not effect for any Mk10 aircraft beinbg shot down, and thus allowing the use of such aircraft unrestricted is unhistorical. Now, if the Germans got a random advance to centrimetric radar availabilty date every time a Mk10 radar aircraft was shot down over german territory (say), then you could allow the choice of how and when to use them to the allied player. If you dont model any effect for the Germans, other restrictions might be appropriate... (like restricted range, straight bans from use, not having them in the game in the first place, etc)

See the point?

Are we sure, it is not modelled already?

TS

[HMSWarspite]

Well if it is, take the spirit of what I say rather than the specific example. I dont know whether the Germans knew we were snooping with RCM Elint a/c... 

[Hard Sarge]

working on it

main issue, is most of these are not "reported"

but getting info

what is odd, is how they were set up, you could fly some Elint (ferret) some window decoy, and some Mandrel screens all on the same day with the same squadron

the window decoy look to be the ones I want

really is a interesting story, first idea was to be, to place two RCM planes into each Squadron, but then they figured out that a Squadron, for this would be better, then... it was seen that a Squadron wasn't enough, and it would take a Group of it's own

to do what I got/want to do, I need Harley, and, he is busy, trying to get the patch finished

Warspite, has a lot of it right, most of the good stuff, wasn't allowed to be used (Windows is interesting, the English wouldn't use it, as they didn't want the Germans to figure it out, but the Germans knew about it in 1940, and wouldn't use it, so the English wouldn't figure it out !, by late 43, the English figured, they didn't care anymore)

and a lot of the advances were when crashes, or bad landings were made

H2S was seen, but wasn't known what it was, until one crashed, and then the Germans were able to make a tracker for it

(good story, early on, when the US and the English started trading info, and needs, they worked out what was going to be needed to make the devices, the US leader, went to a US plant, and was taking a tour, of where these parts were going to be made, but the Manager wasn't looking too happy, finally, he asked him what was the matter, and he replied, well, it is going to be HARD, and I am going to really need to do some work, but 15,000 parts a week is going to be HARD to handle, the guy looked at him, a week ?, I need 15,000 a year, ahhh, a year, that is easy)

[E]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

You have to bear in mind that some consequences are not modelled ... See the point?

I understand the reasoning for barring what-if's. I'm still generally against it in a wargame.

[Hard Sarge]

I got no issue, with Tactics, Doctrine I do

I have spent the last week looking for info on this for the RCM's and I am making changes based on what I find out, but for the most part, these are not missions that were reported on, so it is not as easy as going to wiki and finding all the info you need

I have yet to find info on "range" flown with these planes, the few that I do find, are all subshort missions, so do not help at all

I can tell you how a Mandrel screen was formed and ran, I can tell you how a moonbeam raid was set up (wish I could do those)
(in fact, the Welli's are really doing a part moonbeam and a part window decoy run, when they fly, besides the Ferret part)


I could set up Tuba, but that only works coming home, so, can't do it

Tinsel don't work with in how the game works

I like how the Mandrel (for the most part) is working out

soooo

Welli, Halli, Forts, Libs, Strilings have the same range as there bomber partners, but are slower (need info on weapons, crew size, know the Fort was increased by two more jammer crew members, but don't know if the manned as many weapons)

[MaraTheFinn]

Look:

The Aircraft (A Historical Guide for the Modeller) of 100 Group by Martin Streetly (ISBN: 0 7090 1043 5), 1984, 174p.

It has silhuets and data about all RCM aircraft used in Europe during WW2.
RCM B17's did not have the chin-turret. There was a radar. Some RCM Forts did not have the belly turret either. All had aerials and a lot of those.
It looks like RCM Wellingtons had all armament except waist guns.

[Baron von Beer]

ELINT related, rather than start a new thread:   For the ELINT RCM aircraft to do their thing and expedite deployment of more advanced kit, is it sortie based, or dependent on them getting lit up? EG: Is flying around getting spotted by Freya/Mamuts along the coast as effective as going in and having those plus several night fighter radar types on a single mission?

We don't really have any instruction/game feedback on what they do, or how they are supposed to do it.
[/align]

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: MaraTheFinn

Look:

The Aircraft (A Historical Guide for the Modeller) of 100 Group by Martin Streetly (ISBN: 0 7090 1043 5), 1984, 174p.

It has silhuets and data about all RCM aircraft used in Europe during WW2.
RCM B17's did not have the chin-turret. There was a radar. Some RCM Forts did not have the belly turret either. All had aerials and a lot of those.
It looks like RCM Wellingtons had all armament except waist guns.

it is out of my price range

do you have the book ? some scans, or details would be helpful

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer

ELINT related, rather than start a new thread:   For the ELINT RCM aircraft to do their thing and expedite deployment of more advanced kit, is it sortie based, or dependent on them getting lit up? EG: Is flying around getting spotted by Freya/Mamuts along the coast as effective as going in and having those plus several night fighter radar types on a single mission?

We don't really have any instruction/game feedback on what they do, or how they are supposed to do it.
[/align]

to be honest, I don't really know, all I know, is they are suppost to try and "get" info, the better they do, the better chance of getting advances

what counts as "getting" or better, or advances is left in the air, again, no real, A=B and you get C

[Baron von Beer]

Thanks, I should have known there's no such thing as an easy answer.  [:D] 

For what little it might be worth if you haven't already read it in your search for ELINT info,  a brief description of a 192 mission from a Victor A.Coles DFM (Flt/Lt. retired), @ http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/allied/royalairforce/159sqd-raf.html#coles 

"I did one Operation in a Wellington (Pilot F/O Clarkson) Flew from Hook of Holland to Brest at 2000 feet and back to the Hook looking for signals on a narrow band of frequencies. This was on the 27th May or 4th June , never had the operation logged in my flying log book because the next day after the trip was posted with Sgt Eric Ambler on embarkation leave for India, "Special Flight 159 Squadron SEAC" "[/align]

Also may have seen this, or have the book, but some 192 Squadron statistics from "The Bomber Command War Diaries" http://www.lancaster-archive.com/bc_sqn-192.htm

And one more item, showing one particular crews missions, looks like mostly up and down the coast as well, for ELINT duties at least: map:http://jrpraf.com/NWEurope.htm Op list: http://jrpraf.com/Operations.htm

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

working on it

main issue, is most of these are not "reported"

but getting info

what is odd, is how they were set up, you could fly some Elint (ferret) some window decoy, and some Mandrel screens all on the same day with the same squadron

the window decoy look to be the ones I want

really is a interesting story, first idea was to be, to place two RCM planes into each Squadron, but then they figured out that a Squadron, for this would be better, then... it was seen that a Squadron wasn't enough, and it would take a Group of it's own

to do what I got/want to do, I need Harley, and, he is busy, trying to get the patch finished

I had read about the differing missions, but figured it would be difficult to program without using a bunch of detachments.
Late in the game, I can simulate the above with the extra RCMs being on-line.

Warspite, has a lot of it right, most of the good stuff, wasn't allowed to be used (Windows is interesting, the English wouldn't use it, as they didn't want the Germans to figure it out, but the Germans knew about it in 1940, and wouldn't use it, so the English wouldn't figure it out !, by late 43, the English figured, they didn't care anymore)

and a lot of the advances were when crashes, or bad landings were made

H2S was seen, but wasn't known what it was, until one crashed, and then the Germans were able to make a tracker for it

This is why I'm convinced this is being modelled... No, I don't want to know.
I don't like facts messing up my convictions! [:D]

(good story, early on, when the US and the English started trading info, and needs, they worked out what was going to be needed to make the devices, the US leader, went to a US plant, and was taking a tour, of where these parts were going to be made, but the Manager wasn't looking too happy, finally, he asked him what was the matter, and he replied, well, it is going to be HARD, and I am going to really need to do some work, but 15,000 parts a week is going to be HARD to handle, the guy looked at him, a week ?, I need 15,000 a year, ahhh, a year, that is easy)

TS
Smellin' the Roses

[Howard Mitchell]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

looks like we will be losing more stuff

192 Squadron should be going, maybe one or more of the Welli elints

only elint mission so far, I can track, was to Essen, so don't help

192 Squadron gets 22 pages plus in ‘Even When the Sparrows are Walking’ by Laurie Brettingham, a history of 100 Group.

Soon after its official formation from 1474 flight on 4 Jan 1943 they sent a detachment to the Western Med to survey German radars. They regularly investigated German radars by patrolling off the coast of France, Belgium, Denmark and Norway using the BAGFUL automatic recorder.

The squadron also accompanied main force raids to monitor inland radars, though most of the anecdotes covering this mention Halifaxes not Wellingtons (this was in the final months of the war). In October 1944 the squadron dropped its first window and on 12 December flew its first airborne jammer mission with two Mosquitoes. Eventually all the Mossies were fitted with Piperack as well as ELINT receivers so that they could carry out both roles on the same mission.

The squadron was very active – 440 sorties in 1943, 1,394 in 1944 and 602 in 1945.

[Hard Sarge]

thanks, I got a order in for it, I did have that info already, but thanks for looking for it

and yes, they were odd, they did fly the Welli, the Mossy and the Helli, in game, I dropped one of the Welli and replaced it with the Helli, as they started to fly that in Aug of 43

info on some of this is kind of odd, they joined 100 Group, and were flying missions for 100 group, before 100 Group came about, same with some of the other squadrons (so someone may have there dates screwed up)

[Hard Sarge]

wow this is getting to be a big post !

okay, not sure if this will make much sense

but, this is close to the full gammit of "goodies"

Stirlings, Hallis, Wellies, Mossies in action, don't think the Forts or the Main Force has taken off yet, but, you can see what the results could be

[Howard Mitchell]

ORIGINAL: MaraTheFinn
RCM B17's did not have the chin-turret. There was a radar. Some RCM Forts did not have the belly turret either. All had aerials and a lot of those.

My sources say the same - from Brettingham's book the section about 214 Squadron, which operated Fortresses, says:

"So as far as our Fortresses were concerned these were substantially altered from the specifications used by the Americans to suit 100 Group's special requirements... Mufflers were riveted to the exhaust pipes to screen the bright exhaust flames as these Fortresses were to fly at night, their noses sprouted bulbous blisters to house the H2S scanners and the bomb bays were sealed up to accommodate all the electronic jamming gear. It was also found that the underbelly gun turret was useless at night and this was removed".

"We used the Fortress because JOSTLE used for jamming enemy R/T transmissions would not fit into a Lancaster or Halifax... We also used CARPET and PIPERACK to jam AA gun radar... The crew of a 214 squadron fortress consisted of ten men. A Mid Upper Gunner, a rear gunner, two side gunners (who also threw out the WINDOW when instructed), two wireless operators, one who dealt with the jamming equipment, a bomb aimer (who dealt with PIPERACK and, I think, CARPET), a flight engineer, plus the pilot and navigator".

The book also has a few poorly reproduced photos of 214 Squadron Fortresses, one showing the tail gunner surrounded by a small forest of backward-pointing ECM aerials, one a side view with no ball turret visible, and one with a blister where the chin turret would usually be on a B-17G

[Hard Sarge]

now, combine that with some help form 2nd Tac, Tiffies for the radar sites, Mitches and Bostons for NJG fields, and you got a nice little team going

[Howard Mitchell]

Crossed posts Sarge - good you have an order in for the book, it's not too expensive second hand.