Interested in H3-ANW ... but

[navwarcol]

Ah, yes, have played that, though it has been awhile. It is another one where the table is already set to favor the submarine side though, the cvbg is forced to essentially pass over the position of the SSNs...were that situation to happen, in real life, the submarines would probably sink the carrier, also. I am not disagreeing with you at all. My point, is that, the designers WANTED the carrier to be sunk, so they designed it with every advantage to the subs. Now, if you design your own ( and, I believe I have played some of yours, and would love to play if you design one of these) and in your own, you make it , say..20 hours earlier..the sub is not in position, they have to come from, well, wherever...but that changes the whole scenario. Now, instead of being able to creep for the attack point, the sub has to plan, has to diagram out an intercept point, on a battlegroup, even going 8 kts...If the sub is outside of the "inner circle", they are probably 100nm away from the HVUs..now, they have to do more than 'creep speed' to attain position..and a proper ASW screen will have more than 1 ASW ship 'sprint-drifting' so that the sprinter can get ahead, then drift, on passive, while the drifter sprints. Now, the sub is in a position where they have to not only time the intercept point of the hvu's, whose position they cannot know for certain, but also, time the sprint-drift pattern of the escorts. They may still pentetrate (after all, they are well trained, also) but it is nothing like a guarantee.
The problem with these scens, is that to save the hours long fight for the sub to gain its position, the designers simply set it up to where the surface units would have to cross right over the subs positions. And a sitting-silent modern SS/SSN will sink a target or three in that position.
On your example above, I would probably think it was more fair to play the surface side for a human against an AI sub side..the AI never should have that ASW plane at full throttle, it'll keep bypassing the target and never be able to fire. And there also should have been ASW helos around, they are better at knife fighting than the fast movers.

[navwarcol]

I stand corrected on the color, you are correct.
As for the other, I think you misunderstand me...my argument was not that AI can move to prosecute the attack..instead, my argument was that, in order to prosecute the attack, UNLESS the designer basically gave the submarine player position, already, any side, AI, or human, would have to accelerate..so, the sub may stay at creep speed, and trade that, for not attacking, or, the sub may speed up..in real life, unless the sub just gets very lucky, there is no way that the surface group will just 'happen' to transit right over its position. And, as I said, if the surface group is even 5-10 nm away, (in the big ocean, even that is astronomical odds) the sub is going to BE FORCED to accelerate in order to obtain an attack position..you cannot creep a sub at 3-6kts, and intercept a group that is moving 8-10 kts, unless you have a very, very lucky starting position. The thing with the Soviet subs, is that they were designed to go after carriers, so, their torpedoes had a range that meant they MAY be able to get off a shot from behind, but even that was risky and a low % chance. My point was, we were(myself included) looking at the wrong end of the equation..because once a sub was near enough to attack, it should be able to penetrate the screen and attack..the whole ASW challenge, the entire ASW mission, is designed to keep them farther out, and for the sub, its entire challenge, is getting in close, which, unless the geometry of the situation is incredibly lucky, cannot be done at creep speeds.

As for the players DB...you arent outspoken, and you are a good debater [:)]

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

My point, is that, the designers WANTED the carrier to be sunk, so they designed it with every advantage to the subs. Now, if you design your own ( and, I believe I have played some of yours, and would love to play if you design one of these) and in your own, you make it , say..20 hours earlier..the sub is not in position, they have to come from, well, wherever...but that changes the whole scenario. Now, instead of being able to creep for the attack point, the sub has to plan, has to diagram out an intercept point, on a battlegroup, even going 8 kts...If the sub is outside of the "inner circle", they are probably 100nm away from the HVUs..now, they have to do more than 'creep speed' to attain position..and a proper ASW screen will have more than 1 ASW ship 'sprint-drifting' so that the sprinter can get ahead, then drift, on passive, while the drifter sprints. Now, the sub is in a position where they have to not only time the intercept point of the hvu's, whose position they cannot know for certain, but also, time the sprint-drift pattern of the escorts. They may still pentetrate (after all, they are well trained, also) but it is nothing like a guarantee.

The problem with these scens, is that to save the hours long fight for the sub to gain its position, the designers simply set it up to where the surface units would have to cross right over the subs positions. And a sitting-silent modern SS/SSN will sink a target or three in that position.

I think that you want to try out the running interception of a CVBG in Transit. If that is the case, you might want to try the PlayersDB Ambush scenario from the NACV Classic battleset. It pits a score of submarines against a moving CVBG. I recommend that you try it with H3.6.2 first (and have the AI kick your butt three ways to Sunday [;)]) before trying it in ANW 3.9.4 (and probably sinking the CV).

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

the AI never should have that ASW plane at full throttle, it'll keep bypassing the target and never be able to fire. And there also should have been ASW helos around, they are better at knife fighting than the fast movers.

AI/ASW planes at full throttle is one of the game limitations I mentioned previously. The AI is unable to understand/do a lot of things that a human player takes for granted. Some DB editors insist on entering (real?) operational parameters for planes, ships, subs, or weapons that the AI simply cannot understand so they usually don't work. I think that many other DB editors have simply adjusted things according to the limitations so that the AI can at least fire the weapons that are available to it. However, that is OT for this thread.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: VCDH

Herman, are you using the default colors or have you set up your own? It would probably clear up any confusion because, as you know, the player can alter the default colors to his own choosing. Myself I use yellow for unknown and white for neutral....

... I use a customized personal palette based primarily on the default palette issued by the game and have dampened the hues a bit. I do not know if white was the original colour for neutral sides or not. My palette can be found here for anyone interested in trying it out:

tm.asp?m=1800495&mpage=1&#

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[FreekS]

ORIGINAL: Chelco

I'm from Argentina and I was planning to play some of the Falklands scenarios out there.

I made the Falkland set and they were tested in 3.6.3 and in 3.9.4. They work in both though there are differences and not everything works as I intended it in 3.9.4. However it is doubtfull if a player would notice that a lot.

Freek

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

the whole ASW challenge, the entire ASW mission, is designed to keep them farther out, and for the sub, its entire challenge, is getting in close, which, unless the geometry of the situation is incredibly lucky, cannot be done at creep speeds.

I think a premise and limitation behind this rationale is the belief that a sub is operating on its own. This is the way the AI operates. However, if data can be coordinated from various different sources (the way a human player can), it is not unreasonable to have a sub creep into an area and present an ambush of a surface group. Also, subs do not need to creep all over the ocean. I agree that mid-ocean interception at creep speed is unlikely/difficult, but that really isn't necessary. If one can position within a constricted choke-point or make an educated guess as to where the CVBG is heading, it is not impossible to get close enough for a stealthy penetration.

Game Note: As of this time (ANW 3.9.4), subs will NEVER move faster than creep speed in any mode (except plotted/manually controlled missions). i.e. Transit, patrol, pursuit, or interception. Supposedly, these speeds will be open to customization when the 3.10 Patch is released. Until that function can be publicly verified, all subs will only move at creep throttle.

[navwarcol]

The choke points you are referring to, are the very areas I referred to earlier that IRL would be very heavily sanitized by ASW forces, long before the HVU's arrival. This does not guarantee that a sub will be found and sunk, but, it IS a parameter in the calculation of risk, on the part of the sub commander..do they sit silent hoping they survive the ASW screen? If they choose to try, and then, if the ASW screen passes them and misses(probably along the lines of 70%, really, if they are just sitting..seems like good odds until you realize a great hitter in baseball hits .300..so you have the same odds of dying, as he has of getting a hit) but yes, if they have attained that position, and then survived the ASW screen, it IS very much realistic, that they will be succesful...trying that too much, will give the crew grey hairs far too young, and is a darwinian process where the less skillful will be weeded out, but yes, at that point, it is not poor AI, to not sink the sub until the sub fires..it is what would happen in real life probably also..the very reason naval officers train so much to keep the submarines further out, is because of how deadly the subs are once they are in range.
edit: Are you certain about the subs only moving creep speed? I have to look, but I could swear that I tracked one at around 15kts before on a transit mission, during a scenario i made specifically to examine the passive sonar model.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

edit: Are you certain about the subs only moving creep speed? I have to look, but I could swear that I tracked one at around 15kts before on a transit mission, during a scenario i made specifically to examine the passive sonar model.

I was speaking with a 'true professional' P-3 operator who told me that they need a lot of cues even to sanitize a relatively small choke point. I think that your 70% estimate for evasion might be fair (if not low) under the circumstances.

I don't know what test scen you are using, but I set up a quick one for 3.9.4 and the PlayersDB and it shows subs on Support, ASuW, ASW, Support, Recon, and Transit missions all moving at creep speed. If you have an example showing something different, I would be interested in seeing it. You can check out my test file at:
tm.asp?m=1904270&mpage=1&key=&#

[navwarcol]

I will see if I still have it on one of my cpus..but it was just a small scen that I made and ran with the subs as neutrals, testing the ranges and some data on the passive arrays of some surface ships...and I am not **certain of the speed, but am 90% positive that one of the subs, which was transiting to its mission in an ASuW zone, gets picked up in an area where the only 2 choices were a speed of approx 15 kts...or a star-trek like "beam" that transits it 30 miles from its start point in just a hair over 2 hrs

[Anonymous]

Doing circle after circle with he test setup I mentioned:

- scen "To Protect the Queen" from Battleset GC1
- the Russian CVBG is on Transit Mission
- GEs are 3.6.2 and 3.9.4
- Standard Database

My conclusions so far:

1. In both 3.6.2 and 3.9.4 subs are attacked if they are in the formation and accelerating above creep speed.

2. In both 3.6.2 and 3.9.4 subs are attacked if they (are in the formation and) creep and have fired a single torp.

3. But only in 3.6.2 subs are attacked if they are in (or close to) the formation, creeping and NOT firing.


These are my results after 5 test runs each under 3.6.2 and 3.9.4.

I´ll do more test runs in order to validate that.


Especially important IMO are the following points:

1. Does the ANE GE really not detect the subs creeping in the middle of the formation?

a) "yes" ...this means that the subs are really stealth weapons which is not convincing, not realistic

b) "no"....this means the AI - on a Transit Mission - does not fire on unidentified, or even hostile, subsurface contacts close to its HVUs.


Both cases should lead to improvements.

Ralf

[Anonymous]

Ok,

another run with 3.9.4:

I´ve driven the SSN Turbulent right into the formation and then activated sonar. Nothing happens.

Screenshot uploaded in the Support Section.

This is definitely weird behaviour, at least now the sub should be identified and attacked.

Ralf

[Anonymous]

Uploaded the save game, too.

[Anonymous]

Ok, done some more runs with 3.9.4 and 3.10RC1.

There is a difference:

1. In both 3.9.4 and 3.10 RC1 my subs can creep into the formation without being attacked.

2. Both Game engines attack my subs when they accelerate above creep speed or fire.

3. But only in 3.10 RC1 they are attacked when going active; in 3.9.4 nothing happens.

This is really interesting and looks like an improvement from 3.9.4 to 3.10 RC1.

But 3.6.2 is clearly better here IMO: It is VERY difficult to penetrate the formation, even while creeping. And the AI fires once he has a contact close to his formation.

This should be changed for 3.10 release version. In RC1 it still is possible to come in and close unharrassed to the carrier - and sink it. In 3.6.2 that is close to impossible.

So I think I´m through; I´ve made approx 25 runs with the setup I described.

Ralf

[rsharp@advancedgamin]

Thanks Ralf. I'll take a look at your work.

[Anonymous]

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

Thanks Ralf. I'll take a look at your work.

You´re welcome. Please check it out and rethink the AIs behaviour regarding this issue.

[FreekS]

yes great, this behaviour has made one of my favourite scens (Sollum) unplayable for over two years.

Freek