Game is not broken, History is!

[sprior]

The Battle of Barents Sea in defence of convoy JW51B is another screwed up result.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: sprior

The Battle of Barents Sea in defence of convoy JW51B is another screwed up result.

Warspite1

Good example. In any game, if you gave all the ships involved in that battle their appropriate attack / defence factors etc, then there is little (if any) chance of getting the same result.

What happened during that battle, happened for two reasons that would be difficult to factor into a big picture game i.e. heroic defending of the convoy by Robert Sherbrooke VC [&o] and his fellow destroyer captains and the inexplicable performance of the two German captains - Lutzow`s in particular - largely thanks to Hitlers contradictory orders.

With those forces, if you got the historical result you could claim the game was unrealistic.....or broken

[HMSWarspite]

Sorry to go back to random events rather than battles, but Bombay got its share of ammo explosions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Explosion_%281944%29

27 ships, and 7 months!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Sorry to go back to random events rather than battles, but Bombay got its share of ammo explosions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Explosion_%281944%29

27 ships, and 7 months!

Warspite1

Plus of course the collapsing dock at Trincomalee, Ceylon that ended HMS Valiant`s war.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Alright, then I change my election to the torpedo on Bismarck's rudder. That was like roll 20 twice on d20.

Dont forget it was from an attack of 5 bi planes in really bad weather. Her rudder/3 shafts layout was a fatal flaw though.

The computers for the Bismark's AAA weren't built to take into account attacking A/C that moved at WW I speeds!!!

[fbs]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

The computers for the Bismark's AAA weren't built to take into account attacking A/C that moved at WW I speeds!!!

That's what I usually read around, but I don't know how much of that is a myth -- after all, the Germans knew which aircrafts the British used, and the British had several other aircrafts even slower than the Swordfish (them patrol aircrafts are not particularly speedy).

In Baron-something's book about the Bismarck (the sr. surviving officer), he wrote that it is just very difficult to have effective AA when the ship is evading at high speed, and he cited British examples to support that. I'm referring to that book from memory, though.


Thanks,
fbs

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: fbs

... In Baron-something's book about the Bismarck (the sr. surviving officer), he wrote that it is just very difficult to have effective AA when the ship is evading at high speed, and he cited British examples to support that. I'm referring to that book from memory, though.

The IJN had the same choice at Midway; rely on AAA, or violently maneuver their ships to avoid getting hit; they wisely chose the latter, but still lost 4 CVs.

The Bismark had sixteen single 20 mm anti-aircraft guns; I would think they should have proved more effective against a handful of planes moving so low and so slow.

[Ametysth]

After Americans started launching air strikes against Japanese from Chinese bases in 1944, Japanese launched an operation Ichigo to clear them out. In Honan province Chinese had 34 divisions of troops versus 12 of Japanese.

Chinese however did not even try to fight (in most cases, there where few notable battles). Officers used US supplied trucks to move their families and valuables (read; Loot) to safety, while others ordered their new 105 mm guns to be pulled back so they would not be damaged by fighting. 100 strong Japanese companies took positions held Chinese Brigades almost without a fight and entire Chinese divisions stopped answering to HQ's communications, some falling back long before they have even been in contact to the Japanese. In Chengdu Chinese had seven divisions of 12th War Area. When Japanese reached it, not a single soldier was there; Entire corps had deserted without a fight!

Put that into the game...

[rockmedic109]

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

After Americans started launching air strikes against Japanese from Chinese bases in 1944, Japanese launched an operation Ichigo to clear them out. In Honan province Chinese had 34 divisions of troops versus 12 of Japanese.

Chinese however did not even try to fight (in most cases, there where few notable battles). Officers used US supplied trucks to move their families and valuables (read; Loot) to safety, while others ordered their new 105 mm guns to be pulled back so they would not be damaged by fighting. 100 strong Japanese companies took positions held Chinese Brigades almost without a fight and entire Chinese divisions stopped answering to HQ's communications, some falling back long before they have even been in contact to the Japanese. In Chengdu Chinese had seven divisions of 12th War Area. When Japanese reached it, not a single soldier was there; Entire corps had deserted without a fight!

Put that into the game...

With the Morale and Experience I see in the Chinese units, it IS in the game!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

After Americans started launching air strikes against Japanese from Chinese bases in 1944, Japanese launched an operation Ichigo to clear them out. In Honan province Chinese had 34 divisions of troops versus 12 of Japanese.

Chinese however did not even try to fight (in most cases, there where few notable battles). Officers used US supplied trucks to move their families and valuables (read; Loot) to safety, while others ordered their new 105 mm guns to be pulled back so they would not be damaged by fighting. 100 strong Japanese companies took positions held Chinese Brigades almost without a fight and entire Chinese divisions stopped answering to HQ's communications, some falling back long before they have even been in contact to the Japanese. In Chengdu Chinese had seven divisions of 12th War Area. When Japanese reached it, not a single soldier was there; Entire corps had deserted without a fight!

Put that into the game...

And then the Japanese had to fall back to their original positions to re-garrison them and re-supply themselves..., and the Chinese re-occupied virtually all of the "captured" territory. By 1944, the Chinese KNEW who was going to win the war..., and it wasn't Japan.

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

After Americans started launching air strikes against Japanese from Chinese bases in 1944, Japanese launched an operation Ichigo to clear them out. In Honan province Chinese had 34 divisions of troops versus 12 of Japanese.

Chinese however did not even try to fight (in most cases, there where few notable battles). Officers used US supplied trucks to move their families and valuables (read; Loot) to safety, while others ordered their new 105 mm guns to be pulled back so they would not be damaged by fighting. 100 strong Japanese companies took positions held Chinese Brigades almost without a fight and entire Chinese divisions stopped answering to HQ's communications, some falling back long before they have even been in contact to the Japanese. In Chengdu Chinese had seven divisions of 12th War Area. When Japanese reached it, not a single soldier was there; Entire corps had deserted without a fight!

Put that into the game...

And then the Japanese had to fall back to their original positions to re-garrison them and re-supply themselves..., and the Chinese re-occupied virtually all of the "captured" territory. By 1944, the Chinese KNEW who was going to win the war..., and it wasn't Japan.

Actually, they did not have much hope that war would end within 1945 even. But basically, both KMT and Communists were more interested about gearing for civil war than for war against Japan. China was one front (maybe only one) where US materiel, logistical and training aid had almost negligible impact...to extent of being total waste.

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: fbs

This thread took an interesting turn: people are listing odd accidents and odd hits as examples of freak events, and that is fine. But nobody has come yet with a truly freak battle result.

Well isn't Samar freaky enough? Or HMS Onslow at the Barents Sea? [;)]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Actually, they did not have much hope that war would end within 1945 even. But basically, both KMT and Communists were more interested about gearing for civil war than for war against Japan. China was one front (maybe only one) where US materiel, logistical and training aid had almost negligible impact...to extent of being total waste.

Didn't matter..., Japan was going to lose, and they were going to get China back. Which is why "Ichi-Go" was such a farce. The Chinese knew the Japanese couldn't hold any more ground, so why fight for it? Let them run around for a while, then take it all back without expending any resources. People who say "Ichi-Go" in 1944 proves anything about a Japanese offensive in 1942 are delusional JFB's. All it proves is that the Chinese could read the handwriting on the wall in 1944..., and had their own fish to fry after the Japanese were defeated.

[gladiatt]

Unexpected results of battle in History ?
Well...

Alesia ?
Catalaunique fields?
Hattin ?
Teutoburg?
Crecy?
Malplaquet ?

Of course they were unexpected for the people of these time. Historians and Military analyst would analyses these and explain they could be "expected" but at the time they were fought, these was "unexpected" results [;)]

[Ametysth]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Actually, they did not have much hope that war would end within 1945 even. But basically, both KMT and Communists were more interested about gearing for civil war than for war against Japan. China was one front (maybe only one) where US materiel, logistical and training aid had almost negligible impact...to extent of being total waste.

Didn't matter..., Japan was going to lose, and they were going to get China back. Which is why "Ichi-Go" was such a farce. The Chinese knew the Japanese couldn't hold any more ground, so why fight for it? Let them run around for a while, then take it all back without expending any resources. People who say "Ichi-Go" in 1944 proves anything about a Japanese offensive in 1942 are delusional JFB's. All it proves is that the Chinese could read the handwriting on the wall in 1944..., and had their own fish to fry after the Japanese were defeated.

I disagree. Ichigo worked just fine. Japanese didn't want to occupy any more land anyway, they just wanted to clear the allied air from China. Which they did. If they had wanted to occupy more ground, they would done so long before. After all, Chinese Nationalists hadn't mounted an attack against them since 1938, while anytime Japan choose to attack they went where ever they wanted, both 1939-1940 and 1944.

China was the farce one. The "War Areas" were nothing but Warlords, leftovers from civil wars of 1920's and there was no real central government in any real sense of the word.

What was known as Chinese Nationalists Army was thus incapable of taking offensive action. Regimental commanders kept dead in the books, because Americans kept sending them supplies according the number of people and they could sell the rations of dead men. Divisional commanders had palaces in big cities and sometimes couldn't really say where their divisions were. Everyone was looking out for "A Number One" and absolutely nobody cared anything about war with Japan.

Country called China hadn't really existed since early 1920's, probably from late 1800's and there were nobody to get their country "back". Communists were only ones wanting to fight the Japanese (mainly for ideological reasons as they were Imperialists in every sense of the word), but even they had been beaten back in 1940 in '100 Regiment Attack' and had to switch to guerilla warfare.

[mdiehl]

My pick: Midway... if only that search plane had gone out...

If it had flown its intended search path the Japanese would never have found Yorktown, and the losses on the day would have been at least 4 Japanese CVs sunk to no American CVs sunk.

Japan's problem at Midway was that they had a lousy plan that was fault intolerant, fragile in the face of even modest opposition, and that required perfect execution. These had nothing to do with cosmic forces or luck. Just crummy operational planning.

[Captain]

I would disagree Midway was predictable. It was a fluke result. There were many carrier battles in WW2, how many resulted in one side losing all their carriers?

forget about "the" search plane, the U.S. dive-bombers just have to get to their targets 5 minutes earlier or later than they did and the results are totally different.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Captain


forget about "the" search plane, the U.S. dive-bombers just have to get to their targets 5 minutes earlier or later than they did and the results are totally different.

Sorry, but I think this is a myth. The CAP was out of position, but the KB had been under near constant attack for an hour or more by then, and without a sophisticated and experienced central CAP control, radar, and reliable radios, five minutes was not going to change that situation. There was no strike spotted or even beginning to spot when the dive bombers hit (look at the gun camera photos of the IJN CVs). Even if the strike aircraft had completed rearming below decks, spotting a balanced strike (IJN doctrine) was more like 30-45 minutes away, not 5.

[Fishbed]

Well maybe he was just talking about the attack itself. Remember Akagi fell after being attacked by three planes and hit by a single bomb at its most vulnerable point... 10 seconds before or 10 seconds after it's so strange how fortune of war might have changed, at least for Akagi... At least for a couple hours

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

Unexpected results of battle in History ?
Well...

Alesia ?
Catalaunique fields?
Hattin ?
Teutoburg?
Crecy?
Malplaquet ?

Of course they were unexpected for the people of these time. Historians and Military analyst would analyses these and explain they could be "expected" but at the time they were fought, these was "unexpected" results [;)]

Alesia

Crap...thats a lot of looking stuff up for me! Never heard of ANY of these.