High Altitude Sweep Rant

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ChezDaJez
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by ChezDaJez »

It's WAD, but the influential designer is a hot pilot, not an aeronautical engineer. In reality, lower had an advantage at target acquisition, higher's dive advantage reached saturation at about 4000-5000 feet superior altitude, and anything higher than that was delayed in intercepting.

I wish my father-in-law were still alive--he was an aeronautical engineer, a Navy reserve pilot, and one of Boeing's fighter test pilots.

Yes, but that "hot pilot" is dealing in reality based upon experience, not theory. Nothing against your father-in-law but test pilots didn't necessarily make the best fighter pilots. They just happened to have superb flying skills which weren't always based on the tactics or external situational awareness needed to be effective in air-air combat.

This debate is about the effectiveness of high altitude sweeps once the target has been aquired so target acquisition has already taken place. And I do agree that the greater the difference in altitude, the longer it takes for interception to take place thereby giving the defender a greater chance to prepare and evade. Plus an aircraft approaching terminal dive velocity is not able to maneuver as well as an aircraft at slower speeds.

In my game, Brad occasionally conducts a high altitude sweep with his Hurris and P-40s. Initially, I attempted to match his altitude as best I could but was taking losses on the order of 2 or 3:1. I changed my CAP altitude to one that gives me the best MVR rating advantage over his aircraft and losses have dropped to roughly 1:1. The jury is still out on this though as he doesn't routinely sweep. He still gets the benefit of the bounce but once the bounce is over, my higher MVR rating increases my ability to knock down some of his aircraft plus my aircraft remain in a better position to intercept any bombers.

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JWE
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: herwin
I wish my father-in-law were still alive--he was an aeronautical engineer, a Navy reserve pilot, and one of Boeing's fighter test pilots.
Wow Harry, that's totally cool! What was his name, and when was he on payroll?

My little Wisconsin LLC has done some interesting subcontract work for Bell-Boeing and Boeing-Sikorsky in the last couple years - sensors, not airplanes - but we have to meet and greet with the fat-cats. Corporate dinner small-talk is so boring and I would love to mention to Sorrentino or Marsh - 'I know someone who's father was one of your test pilots back in (whenever)' - way more fun than the usual.

What planes did he fly? Which fields did he fly out of? Gosh, this is nice to know.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
It's WAD, but the influential designer is a hot pilot, not an aeronautical engineer. In reality, lower had an advantage at target acquisition, higher's dive advantage reached saturation at about 4000-5000 feet superior altitude, and anything higher than that was delayed in intercepting.

I wish my father-in-law were still alive--he was an aeronautical engineer, a Navy reserve pilot, and one of Boeing's fighter test pilots.

Yes, but that "hot pilot" is dealing in reality based upon experience, not theory. Nothing against your father-in-law but test pilots didn't necessarily make the best fighter pilots. They just happened to have superb flying skills which weren't always based on the tactics or external situational awareness needed to be effective in air-air combat.

This debate is about the effectiveness of high altitude sweeps once the target has been aquired so target acquisition has already taken place. And I do agree that the greater the difference in altitude, the longer it takes for interception to take place thereby giving the defender a greater chance to prepare and evade. Plus an aircraft approaching terminal dive velocity is not able to maneuver as well as an aircraft at slower speeds.

In my game, Brad occasionally conducts a high altitude sweep with his Hurris and P-40s. Initially, I attempted to match his altitude as best I could but was taking losses on the order of 2 or 3:1. I changed my CAP altitude to one that gives me the best MVR rating advantage over his aircraft and losses have dropped to roughly 1:1. The jury is still out on this though as he doesn't routinely sweep. He still gets the benefit of the bounce but once the bounce is over, my higher MVR rating increases my ability to knock down some of his aircraft plus my aircraft remain in a better position to intercept any bombers.

Chez

In other words, take advantage of the details!

Bob was a fine aeronautical engineer and later did heat shield design for NASA. He was very quiet and very good. Climbed mountains as a hobby. His retirement gift was a mounted chunk of the Apollo 13 heat shield.
Harry Erwin
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herwin
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: herwin
I wish my father-in-law were still alive--he was an aeronautical engineer, a Navy reserve pilot, and one of Boeing's fighter test pilots.
Wow Harry, that's totally cool! What was his name, and when was he on payroll?

My little Wisconsin LLC has done some interesting subcontract work for Bell-Boeing and Boeing-Sikorsky in the last couple years - sensors, not airplanes - but we have to meet and greet with the fat-cats. Corporate dinner small-talk is so boring and I would love to mention to Sorrentino or Marsh - 'I know someone who's father was one of your test pilots back in (whenever)' - way more fun than the usual.

What planes did he fly? Which fields did he fly out of? Gosh, this is nice to know.

Robert Dickey flew the XF8B out of Seattle. When Pearl Harbor happened, he was a reserve naval aviator, but Boeing insisted on keeping him. Something about good test pilots being harder to find than good fighter pilots.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
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JWE
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: herwin
Robert Dickey flew the XF8B out of Seattle. When Pearl Harbor happened, he was a reserve naval aviator, but Boeing insisted on keeping him. Something about good test pilots being harder to find than good fighter pilots.
Excellent !! Must have been step-father, yes? I'm taking a trip back east in 2 weeks for family reasons - will be seeing the "influential designer" on the way out. Coming back, will be doing the great circle through DC, St Louis, Colorado Springs, and Mojave. Probably won't see Sorrentino, but will see D'Arcy Marsh for sure. I'll be sure and mention it.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: herwin
Robert Dickey flew the XF8B out of Seattle. When Pearl Harbor happened, he was a reserve naval aviator, but Boeing insisted on keeping him. Something about good test pilots being harder to find than good fighter pilots.
Excellent !! Must have been step-father, yes? I'm taking a trip back east in 2 weeks for family reasons - will be seeing the "influential designer" on the way out. Coming back, will be doing the great circle through DC, St Louis, Colorado Springs, and Mojave. Probably won't see Sorrentino, but will see D'Arcy Marsh for sure. I'll be sure and mention it.

Diane's dad--my father-in-law. My dad was an EOD tech in the ETO. Fought in the lines at Mortain and Bastogne, but usually worked as a gunsmith when he wasn't dealing with unexploded ordnance.

The sort of thing Bob did.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
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JWE
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: herwin
Diane's dad--my father-in-law. My dad was an EOD tech in the ETO. Fought in the lines at Mortain and Bastogne, but usually worked as a gunsmith when he wasn't dealing with unexploded ordnance.
Excellentamundo !! I'll have my secretary collect all this stuff and shoot it out to D'Arcy's secretary. It will give us something to talk about beyond that usual corporate small talk and nonsense. Thanks.

(e) Sorry for the hijack, folks. Back to the regularly scheduled rant. (/e)
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michaelm75au
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by michaelm75au »

Single-engine aircraft flying at higher than 80% of their maximum altitude (as stated in the scenario file) will cause more additional fatigue on their pilots as they enter combat. The fatigue is based on distance flown from its base to the point of combat.
Not sure when this changed from the original fixed 25K setting to a more variable one.

The extra fatigue should impact the pilot skill in following combat.

If I was building a scenario, I would use the maximum EFFECTIVE COMBAT ceiling as the max. The max ceiling is not used really for anything but combat, IIRC.
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Andrew Brown
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: michaelm
If I was building a scenario, I would use the maximum EFFECTIVE COMBAT ceiling as the max. The max ceiling is not used really for anything but combat, IIRC.

I agree but the trick is to obtain the data...

Andrew
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John Lansford
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by John Lansford »

The AI has sent the entire IJA air force to Burma in an attempt to slow down my advance back down the peninsula.  I'm seeing 20-30 bombers escorted by as many as 150 Oscars over Akyab and Chittagong, just daring my fighters to come up and play.  My squadrons of Hurricanes have experienced pilots but against those odds they just don't have a chance.  Bombing the bases around Mandalay doesn't work; there's 30+ Oscars flying CAP over all of them and after a few days my medium/heavy bomber squadrons are worn down to nothing.  I've got ground units advancing to Mandalay but the AI has stuffed those bases full of dug in troops and mine are on a long logistic train.
 
 
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Sardaukar
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Sardaukar »

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Single-engine aircraft flying at higher than 80% of their maximum altitude (as stated in the scenario file) will cause more additional fatigue on their pilots as they enter combat. The fatigue is based on distance flown from its base to the point of combat.
Not sure when this changed from the original fixed 25K setting to a more variable one.

The extra fatigue should impact the pilot skill in following combat.

If I was building a scenario, I would use the maximum EFFECTIVE COMBAT ceiling as the max. The max ceiling is not used really for anything but combat, IIRC.

Hi,

Could you check that planes flying high would actually gain meaningful amount of extra fatigue? It doesn't seem to be very large amount, but I haven't really tested it. It might be worth adjusting the fatigue amounts up, since really high-flying was apparently really stressing for pilot in single-engined fighters.
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: michaelm
If I was building a scenario, I would use the maximum EFFECTIVE COMBAT ceiling as the max. The max ceiling is not used really for anything but combat, IIRC.

I agree but the trick is to obtain the data...

Andrew

500 ft/minute climb is usually used as the combat ceiling. Service ceiling is 100 ft/minute climb. You derive this from the engine chart. Rate of climb is proportional to power available once you have enough lift to stay airborne. I did the necessary computations once for a collection of aircraft including the F4F3, F4F4, F4U1, and F6F3, but my analysis notebook is no longer available to me. For a quick approximation, use the service ceiling to get the power available at that altitude and then back down in altitude until the increase in engine power gives you five times the power available.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
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Sardaukar
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by Sardaukar »

One could probably get some ROC vs Alt comparisons from IL-2 Sturmovik help program called IL2 Wingman. But of course not all may accept the stats from that simulator. 
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Single-engine aircraft flying at higher than 80% of their maximum altitude (as stated in the scenario file) will cause more additional fatigue on their pilots as they enter combat. The fatigue is based on distance flown from its base to the point of combat.
Not sure when this changed from the original fixed 25K setting to a more variable one.

The extra fatigue should impact the pilot skill in following combat.

If I was building a scenario, I would use the maximum EFFECTIVE COMBAT ceiling as the max. The max ceiling is not used really for anything but combat, IIRC.

Hi,

Could you check that planes flying high would actually gain meaningful amount of extra fatigue? It doesn't seem to be very large amount, but I haven't really tested it. It might be worth adjusting the fatigue amounts up, since really high-flying was apparently really stressing for pilot in single-engined fighters.

I think he's saying that he did just check the code...
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topeverest
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by topeverest »

Extract of Commander USS Yorktown official AAR for Battle of Midway. CAP section summary.

"It is believed that the Combat Air Patrol should be placed at such an altitude that the pilots are not required to use oxygen while on patrol. It is felt that 10,000 feet is a satisfactory altitude, for from there they can be vectored out satisfactorily to intercept either low or high flying bogies. It has the additional advantage of being less tiring on the pilot, as he is more comfortable at a lower altitude and is not inconvenienced by having to wear an oxygen mask. In addition, too much time is wasted in having a CAP come down from 18,000 feet by the controlling fighter director. A low flying bogey was picked up and part of the CAP had to be brought down to investigate. By the time they got down the bogey had disappeared off the screen. The Yorktown maintained her CAP at 10,000 feet and successfully intercepted all bogies except for the one mentioned above."

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witpqs
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Extract of Commander USS Yorktown official AAR for Battle of Midway. CAP section summary.

"It is believed that the Combat Air Patrol should be placed at such an altitude that the pilots are not required to use oxygen while on patrol. It is felt that 10,000 feet is a satisfactory altitude, for from there they can be vectored out satisfactorily to intercept either low or high flying bogies. It has the additional advantage of being less tiring on the pilot, as he is more comfortable at a lower altitude and is not inconvenienced by having to wear an oxygen mask. In addition, too much time is wasted in having a CAP come down from 18,000 feet by the controlling fighter director. A low flying bogey was picked up and part of the CAP had to be brought down to investigate. By the time they got down the bogey had disappeared off the screen. The Yorktown maintained her CAP at 10,000 feet and successfully intercepted all bogies except for the one mentioned above."

It would be great if this type of time-consequence of altitude (and the need to change altitude) is accounted for by the code, including for sweepers coming in (not just for CAP). I don't know if it is currently in the code or not, but if it is that really answers many of the issues that people have raised.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by USSAmerica »

Even if that level of detail is taken into account by the code, to the player it is all abstracted.  If you really want to see the air battle unfold like that, you need to look at a tactical game, instead of a Grand Strategic one.  The detail in AE is unbelievable, but it can't be that detailed and still encompass the entire Pacific.
Mike

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witpqs
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by witpqs »

I'm totally happy with it being abstracted. I just mean that there are various altitude complaints out there and knowing if this is (abstractly) accounted for would help with those.
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by CapAndGown »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I'm totally happy with it being abstracted. I just mean that there are various altitude complaints out there and knowing if this is (abstractly) accounted for would help with those.

It's not going to help with the complaints if the complainers still think its broken. [;)]
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RE: High Altitude Sweep Rant

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I'm totally happy with it being abstracted. I just mean that there are various altitude complaints out there and knowing if this is (abstractly) accounted for would help with those.

It's not going to help with the complaints if the complainers still think its broken. [;)]

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