Emergency Reinforcements--India/Socotra

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I think this is an oversight. It seems to me IRL if Socotra was seized, India would have been deemed in mortal danger even if no Indian territory had yet been invaded.

If you wake up in your own bedroom to find a neighbor standing over you with a butcher knife at the ready, you know what's going on even if you're not bleeding yet.

I'm not so sure. From my limited reading on the place it appears that the Sultan was in charge from the mid-19th C. onward, and there was only a fairly minor RAF base there in WWII. The harbor is poor.

Based on your argument, why wouldn't an assault on DG trigger reinforcments? DG somewhat straddles the CT routes. Or, more to the point, how about Madras or Calcutta actually FALLING? That would be a body-blow to the industrial might of India, far in excess of any usefulness found at Socotra.

In the game Socotra is useful only because of the artifice of the off-map system. It can be used for naval search of the wormhole exits. But IRL, if the Japanese had gotten that far north, I doubt they would have wasted even a bomb on Socotra. They would have kept going and smeared the oil fields, and possibly tried to sink hulks to block the Suez Canal exits.

[witpqs]

I think DG or Addu would have caused great concern. But Socotra can only mean one thing - cutting off India from support. And it's pretty hard to contemplate an IJ player only taking Socotra and not either of the bases you mentioned, or perhaps Ceylon instead of those two.

Yeah it's in the context of the map edge, but that's what we got. [8D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I think DG or Addu would have caused great concern. But Socotra can only mean one thing - cutting off India from support. And it's pretty hard to contemplate an IJ player only taking Socotra and not either of the bases you mentioned, or perhaps Ceylon instead of those two.

Yeah it's in the context of the map edge, but that's what we got. [8D]

In the context fo the off-map system I would tend to agree more.

However, my hump to get over is the northness of the line itself. No way would the British allow Bombay, Madras and Calcutta to fall before they did anything. But lay a finger on Karachi? Lights out, baby. If we can't get a variable, unknown trigger line system, I'd be more in favor of a "key cities" system which allowed some non-base or small-base landings and subsequent overland ops to sever supply lines and communications, but that would not trigger massive reinforcments from another world theater. Those would only come if the economy of the target nation was in peril.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I think DG or Addu would have caused great concern. But Socotra can only mean one thing - cutting off India from support. And it's pretty hard to contemplate an IJ player only taking Socotra and not either of the bases you mentioned, or perhaps Ceylon instead of those two.

Yeah it's in the context of the map edge, but that's what we got. [8D]

In the context fo the off-map system I would tend to agree more.

However, my hump to get over is the northness of the line itself. No way would the British allow Bombay, Madras and Calcutta to fall before they did anything. But lay a finger on Karachi? Lights out, baby. If we can't get a variable, unknown trigger line system, I'd be more in favor of a "key cities" system which allowed some non-base or small-base landings and subsequent overland ops to sever supply lines and communications, but that would not trigger massive reinforcments from another world theater. Those would only come if the economy of the target nation was in peril.

A "key cities" system is one possible approach. But your problem is the perceived artificiality of the straight line in the context of the real world.

Well to add to the problem, even a "key cities" system might be suspect in the real world. What if the Japanese player invades/captures an Indian city which belongs to a Maharaja? At the time, a considerable amount of Indian territory was under local rule. India was not, as some people seem to believe, a 100% monolithic Crown Colony. This can best be seen in the different Indian army formations.

Alfred

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Bah!  This work isn't really helpful to the AE community since only the most inept of Allied players will find themselves faced with an invasion of Socatra or western India.  I can't imagine this coming up in a real game....

Shhh, we don't want any JFB's lurking about to even consider this apparoach.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Alfred


A "key cities" system is one possible approach. But your problem is the perceived artificiality of the straight line in the context of the real world.

I think it works in a political context, which is what the decision to reinforce would be, more so than a military decision.

Well to add to the problem, even a "key cities" system might be suspect in the real world. What if the Japanese player invades/captures an Indian city which belongs to a Maharaja? At the time, a considerable amount of Indian territory was under local rule. India was not, as some people seem to believe, a 100% monolithic Crown Colony. This can best be seen in the different Indian army formations.

All true, but in the context of the game, and a system that has to work for Oz, NZ, and North America, I wouldn't expect this level of granularity. Or, frankly, interest on the part of WWII grognards.

Next you'll be looking for Indian Army experience hits due to language difficulties.[:)]

[vettim89]

The whole "Line of Death" issue is interesting to me. From a pure AE standpoint, it is nice that at least there is some context that the Japanese can't run wild without some change in the Allied OOB.

However if you look at this from a RL whole world perspective, this becomes really complex. If the reinforcements are triggered then that means there are not where there were in RL. A person could argue that the Indian forces were not the elite of the 8th Army at the time but remember, Auckinleck had his back up against the Suez canal in June 1942. The 10th Indian was part of his main defensive line. Pull that unit and does the war in Europe change dramatically? Probably even more so for the Aussie or Kiwi units that would be pulled.

[Nomad]

I am bringing this thread back to life since things seem to have changed. I am playing a BTS-L game using 1126b. My opponent invaded Socotra and I got this message:

Middle East/Africa invaded! Counter invasion forces released.

I got the standard India invaded forces.

XXI Indian Corps arrives at Aden

6th Indian Division arrives at Abadan

10th Indian Division arrives at Aden

31st Armoured Division arrives at Aden

8th Indian Division arrives at Aden

Emergency Convoy Supply Convoy arrives at Aden

5th Indian Division arrives at Aden

XXI Corps Engineer Battalion arrives at Aden

[Q-Ball]

I had no knowledge of anything in this thread, though apparently I commented on it 10 years ago!

[Canoerebel]

Yeah, 'cause you were busy invading India at the time. [:@]

[Nomad]

I see that I did not get the Waziristan Division at Karachi. It seems that John took it out.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yeah, 'cause you were busy invading India at the time. [:@]

I definitely didn't want to trigger the boys from Waziristan. IIRC, I got stuck on Bombay, and didn't want to move past due to these reinforcements.

The whole thing wasn't the greatest idea

[Canoerebel]

Yeah, I don't think you ever took Bombay, but I was sweating it because I was dealing with the unknown, a good opponent, and the prospect of very public humiliation in the Forum.

[BBfanboy]

There was a suggestion near the top of the page that once Karachi and Socotra were taken, KB could base there to "guard the wormhole". Maybe so, but that leave the Central Pacific, SOPAC, DEI and NORPAC wide open for Allied Carriers to bring in the Amphib invasions and capture bases to bomb the heck out of Japanese oil resources. KB cannot be a guard dog at home and a strategic weapon at the same time.

So yes, India can be conquered but there are too many places for Japanese forces to cover and eventually a swarm of transports and covering ships will burst out of Cape Town and take back the key bases in the IO. Unless taking India leads to Autovic, I don't see any great benefit to Japan vs. the cost of keeping it.

[RangerJoe]

But if India can be taken with lots of supplies captured, then lightly garrisoned it may help the Japanese. Just let the partisans destroy all the airfields and such. [:D]

[Canoerebel]

Probably. Maybe.

This thread began when the game was new and the possibilities uncertain. Japan had an uber initiative and it was hard to tell just how long it last and how far it could go.

We know a lot more today, so that it might be harder. I think an experienced IJ player could accomplish it against a green Allied player, the scale sliding up or down based on experience and skill. But there's a chance that a skilled IJ player could do it against a good opponent.

There are many challenges for the Allied player - recognizing what's happening and then the time needed to organize and orchestrate an effective response. He may be tardy or his opponent may get lucky (subs damaging some carriers). It's pretty hard for the Allied player to strike effectively, meaningfully, lastingly in April '42, by which time an IJ India First Op should be well underway. And if he mistimes it by leaning towards India for awhile, all the harder.

The key to the gambit is Karachi. If the Japanese player can take it (and if he can then take Bombay) India is lost. China should be too. There'll be a lot of permanent points there, so it might work.

To my knowledge, no IJ player has accomplished this against a human opponent. It might not be possible. But it might.

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

There was a suggestion near the top of the page that once Karachi and Socotra were taken, KB could base there to "guard the wormhole". Maybe so, but that leave the Central Pacific, SOPAC, DEI and NORPAC wide open for Allied Carriers to bring in the Amphib invasions and capture bases to bomb the heck out of Japanese oil resources. KB cannot be a guard dog at home and a strategic weapon at the same time.

So yes, India can be conquered but there are too many places for Japanese forces to cover and eventually a swarm of transports and covering ships will burst out of Cape Town and take back the key bases in the IO. Unless taking India leads to Autovic, I don't see any great benefit to Japan vs. the cost of keeping it.

[Canoerebel]

As an Allied player (only), that would be the recipe that concerns me. Since I've never played Japan, though, I don't know whether the IJ player can handle the supplies needed to do it.

The IJ player would have to be very aggressive and organized - gifted at planning and logistics. He'd need to land at or near Surat as early as possible, isolating and taking Karachi. Any misfire would probably be fatal, and many IJ players would then lose interest, having swung for the cheap seats but missing. Sudden Carrier Loss Syndrome, India Version.

[Nomad]

I was not specific enough with first turn rules. He landed at Mersing turn 1 and took Singapore in the first 10 days of the war. My bad, I should have
been more specific, but the war has to go on.

We are in March of 1942. I did get sigint on his movements and I landed the 7th Australian Division in India.
I decided very early to evacuate China, since losing India would also assure the loss of China I felt it was better to try and group everything together. He has taken parts of India, but I have fortified and assembled all I have mostly in Bombay, Karachi, and Dehli. I did not know about
Socotra releasing the invasion forces, I was trying to figure out how to lure him North of the Line of Death to trigger them. Since it is March of 1942

Most of my Naval forces are just about to do their important 4/42 upgrades. If I can prevent an Autovictory at 1/1/43 I will be OK.
BTW, he has also invaded Perth, but I have him stopped there. He seems to want to take everything in sight
( kind of like John III ) and I think that will hurt him in the long run.

[RangerJoe]

Also, the KB does not need to be near Socotra. Long ranged Nells will work until the route from the Atlantic to Aden opens up so carriers can be brought there. If carriers are brought from Capetown to that area, the Nells can flee but those carriers are not elsewhere. Those might also have to be American carriers as well, depending upon the timing and whether or not withdrawls are in use.

[GetAssista]

Confirmed. Socotra invasion triggers emergency reinforcements in my Scenario 2 AI game.

Waziristan ID appears in Karachi immediately
5 other Indian IDs, including one armored, queue to Karachi in 5-19 days. In PBEM games they queue to Aden.

By the way, in the earlier days in the AI games those 5 Indian divisions appeared in Karachi on the next day after the Waziristan one. So I had to plan and take Karachi in a single amphibious attack.