Playing with the Big Boys

[Mobius]

That video shows that you are right about the thickness of the front turret. On the model 1941 KV-2 at least. The German's stenciled '75' on that area and '50' on the mantlet shield by the sight hole. The '75' area is pretty small. I may have to change a few things unless there was an upgrade.

[Yoozername]

I noticed that also.  In a similar film, the T-34 has '4.5' stenciled all over the tank.

[Mad Russian]

Here is a short film on an encounter with a KV-1. You can see all the hits it took and the explanation as to what Hermann Bix resorted to to knock this one out. Not a KV-2 but in the same category.

Bix was a in PzIII with a 50mm gun. Not a 37mm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0v1zTsuXDI&NR=1

Good Hunting.

MR

[Yoozername]

The KV1 had sloped 75mm side armor on the turret>  I would expect a 50mmL42 to have a problem penetrating that armor.
 
A KV2 has vertical armor on its turret side.  Both KVs have 75mm turret side armor.
 
And any tank barrel is easily penetrated by AP.  Its not armor.

[Mobius]

Without APCR the chance to penetrate the side armor is not very good.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

And any tank barrel is easily penetrated by AP.  Its not armor.

I understand that the barrel isn't armored, so to speak, but I would think it would be hard to hit the barrel square enough to penetrate it with the small size of the barrel and the curvature of it.

In this case, it obviously wasn't, and in at least one of the KV-2's with pictures in this thread it wasn't for that tank either.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Yoozername]

You are just a flat out odd person.  I hope the developers/designers/fanbase cares about that.  You have my best wishes for help and a full recovery.

You show a thinking disorder.  The sad fact is that most people over the age of 39 have very little hope of ever making progress against this.

EDIT: You are a poor representative for this hobby. I suppose that is for others to decide. Why are you going on about the barrel penetrations? Why not address the issues?

[Stridor]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

You are just a flat out odd person.  I hope the developers/designers/fanbase cares about that.  You have my best wishes for help and a full recovery.

You show a thinking disorder.  The sad fact is that most people over the age of 39 have very little hope of ever making progress against this.

EDIT: You are a poor representative for this hobby. I suppose that is for others to decide. Why are you going on about the barrel penetrations? Why not address the issues?

Few people have provided more constructive input into the tactical wargame community than MR, and indeed PCO development owes a big debt of gratitude to him.

Your ad hominem attacks only serve to weaken your argument and further marginalise your already dubious reputation.

Still it would be a shame to lose your input, undoubtedly as I suspect that you derive some measure of satisfaction from the discourse. So, obviously, tread carefully, as I suspect you are on some very tenuous ground.

S.

[Mobius]

MR was leading this thread about early war KV-2 fighting. That is the subject at hand.

We don't have barrel hits in the game, though I would like them. Armor plate is 2-2.5 times stronger than mild steel. And it might only take a partial penetration hit to damage one enough to make the gun unusable.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

You are just a flat out odd person.  I hope the developers/designers/fanbase cares about that.  You have my best wishes for help and a full recovery.

You show a thinking disorder.  The sad fact is that most people over the age of 39 have very little hope of ever making progress against this.

My Grandmother said I was a good kid, when I was asleep...it's just I didn't sleep enough...so you're probably right.

As has been my history with you, when you can't win an argument with logical discussion you rapidly move on to personal attacks. Since, no matter what I say about anything, will be disagreeable to you, I will state what I think is relevant and go on from there.

EDIT: You are a poor representative for this hobby. I suppose that is for others to decide.

Could be you are right. I suppose that is for others to decide.

Why are you going on about the barrel penetrations? Why not address the issues?

Because I started this thread. It's about how difficult KV tanks, and KV-2 tanks in particular, were for the Germans to knock out. Shooting them through the barrel was one obvious way they did it. It's part of the "DISCUSSION", that's why I brought it up.

For those of us that don't know every single thing about WWII, like you do, we discuss things. Odd things, curious things, things that sometimes don't make sense to us. Or funny things, things we run across while doing research, things that have happened to us in a game against our favorite opponent, sometimes just things. Those are things most of us like to discuss.

We interact. What we don't normally do is sit and be lectured and told how stupid we are if we disagree with anything the lecturer has to say.

There are other forums, at other sites, where that kind of behavior works. It doesn't work well on these forums.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Yoozername]

So you still think the KV-2 would be omnipotent in 1945?

And the KV-2 would actually be easier to knock out than a KV-1. As already discussed, the KV-2 turret armor is inferior to the KV-1. If the gun hits were modeled, it would be even easier to knock out given the size of the barrel.

I think the 'lore' that is being propagated about KV tanks should be viewed as initial contacts and the German early guns being inadequate. A German report below demonstrates that at least for the StuG equipped units, methods were devised to counter the KV's and other Soviet armor. Note the reports seem to indicate early StuGs with L24 weapons...

Excerpt from "Stug III Assault Gun 1940-1942," by Doyle/Jentz


"From 22 June/31 December 1941, in exchange
for the total loss of nine Sturmgeschutz (six
destroyed by enemy action and three blown up to
prevent capture), Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung 185
destroyed or captured 64 medium and heavy
artillery pieces, 66 light artillery pieces, 39
infantry guns, 34 mortars, 79 anti-tank guns, 45
anti-aircraft guns, 314 MGs, 91 tanks, nine
armoured cars, etc. No less than 58,890 rounds of
75 mm ammunition had been fired. The high rate
of ammunition expenditure was due to the order
from the Commander of the 18th Army that
Sturmgeschutz were to use gunfire to open routes
for the infantry to advance."

"In a follow-up report for the period from 20
February/9 April 1942, Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung
185 claimed to have knocked out two KV-11, 29
KW-I, and 27 T-34 tanks and over 50 guns
against a total loss of eight Sturmgeschutz. Only
those enemy tanks that were observed to be burning
or heavily damaged were claimed. No claims
were made for those stopped by damaging the
tracks, drive sprocket, etc. Personnel losses had
amounted to 11 dead and 23 wounded. The
ammunition expenditure during this period was
12,370 Sprenggranaten (HE shells), 5,120
K.Gr.rot Pz. (AP shells), and 1,360 Gr.38 HI-
(HEAT) rounds."

A history of the unit....in case someone would want to design a scenario...

Sturmartillerie-Abteilung 185
Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 185 (7 Feb 41)
Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 185 (14 Feb 44)
Heeres-Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 185 (10 Jul 44)

10 Aug 40 formed at Jüterbog (WK III) with three batteries
Nov 40 moved to Braunsberg and Heiligenbeil, East Prussia
22 Jun 41 I Corps, 18th Army, Army Group Center
19 Jul 41 XXVI Corps, 18th Army, Army Group North
20 Aug 41 XXVI Corps, 18th Army, Army Group North less 1 battery attached to Kampfgruppe Friedrich
1 Oct 41 XXXVIII Corps, 18th Army, Army Group North
21 Nov 41 I Corps, 16th Army, Army Group North
8 Dec 41 I Corps, 18th Army, Army Group North
2, 12 Jan 42 18th Army Reserve, Army Group North
26 Jan 42 18th Army Reserve, Army Group North less one battery assigned to XXVI Corps, 18th Army
[Niehorster: Jul 42, 18th Army, Army Group North]
19 Jul 42 Hoh.Arko 302, 18th Army, Army Group North (nicht einsatzbect(?)) less 1./ assigned to XXVIII Corps, 18th Army
Oct 42 3. Batterie re-equipped with StuH 42

[Mad Russian]

Good information. Where is it from?

Good Hunting.

MR

[Yoozername]

Excerpt from "Stug III Assault Gun 1940-1942," by Doyle/Jentz

website provided unit history
http://sturmvogel.orbat.com/stug.html

[Mad Russian]

There was a quote from the site you linked to:

This is demonstrated by their armament of a short, low-velocity 75mm L/24 gun that had little anti-tank capability over 500 meters unless one of the relatively uncommon hollow-charge rounds was available. The initial stages of the campaign in Russia demonstrated that the anti-tank role would be a vital necessity and a new, longer, medium velocity L/48 barrel was designed for the 75mm gun, but the StuGs equipped with the new gun didn't arrive until shortly before the '42 campaigning season began.

Bold is mine. As the war went on the Germans started finding ways to counter the KV's and T-34's. One way was the increase in the hollow charge rounds talked about in the above statement. Wittmann had a famous action in a StuG, 12 July 1941, near Novno, Ukraine, against 18 Soviet tanks. Some of those have been claimed to be T-34's but when he disengaged it was because of his coming in contact with a KV.

Once we get the update finished there are several campaigns that can be done. One of those would be with a StuG unit. They are grossly underrepresented in wargaming. Not sure what time period or which unit to portray yet.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Yoozername]

Perhaps early in the war in Russia the HEAT rounds were rare for all German weapons, but as the quote above shows, at least for the StuGIII, there were enough that 1 out of 5 anti-armor rounds fired was a HEAT round. 
 
Much of the 'lore' regarding KV and T34 monsters is regarding initial contact with these unknown vehicles and the general defensive ambush tactics that the Soviets could pull off. 
 
Krasnogvardeysk
On August 14, 1941, the vanguard of the German 8th Panzer Division approached Krasnogvardeysk (Gatchina) near Leningrad (St Petersburg), and the only Soviet force available at the time to attempt to stop the German advance consisted of five well-hidden KV-1 tanks, dug in within a grove at the edge of a swamp. KV-1 tank no. 864 was commanded by the leader of this small force, Lieutenant Zinoviy Kolobanov.



[/align]German tank vanguard attack plan and positions of three soviet KV-1 tanks[/align][/align][/align]


[/align]Soviet newspaper article of 1941[/align][/align][/align]German forces attacked Krasnogvardeysk from three directions. Near Noviy Uchkhoz settlement the geography favoured the Soviet defenders as the only road in the region passed the swamp, and the defenders commanded this choke point from their hidden position. Lieutenant Kolobanov had carefully studied the situation and readied his detachment the day before. Each KV-1 tank carried twice the normal amount of ammunition, two-thirds being armour-piercing rounds. Kolobanov ordered his other commanders to hold their fire and await orders. He did not want to reveal the total force, so only one exposed tank at a time would engage the enemy.
On August 14, the German 8th Panzer Division's vanguard ventured directly into the well-prepared Soviet ambush, with Kolobanov's tank knocking out the lead German tank with its first shot. The Germans falsely assumed that their lead tank had hit an anti-tank mine, and failed to realize that they had been ambushed. The German column stopped, giving Kolobanov the opportunity to destroy the second tank. Only then did the Germans realize they were under attack, but they failed to find the source of the shots. While the German tanks were firing blindly, Kolobanov knocked out the trailing German tank, thus boxing in the entire column.
Although the Germans correctly guessed the direction of fire, they could only spot Lieutenant Kolobanov's tank, and now attempted to engage an unseen enemy. German tanks moving off the road bogged down in the surrounding soft ground, becoming easy targets. 22 German tanks and 2 towed artillery pieces fell victim to Kolobanov's No. 864 before it ran out of ammunition. Kolobanov ordered in another KV-1, and 21 more German tanks were destroyed before the half-hour battle ended. A total of 43 German tanks were destroyed by just five Soviet KV-1s (two more remained in reserve).
After the battle, the crew of No. 864 counted a total of 135 hits on their tank, none of which had penetrated the KV-1's armour. Lieutenant Kolobanov was awarded the Order of Lenin, while his driver Usov was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. Later on, former Captain Zinoviy Kolobanov was again decorated by Soviet authorities, despite having been convicted and downgraded after the Winter War for "fraternizing with the enemy." After the end of World War II, Lieutenant Kolobanov served in the Soviet occupation zone in East Germany, where he was convicted again when a subordinate escaped to the British occupation zone, and was transferred to the reserves.
The battle for Krasnogvardeysk was covered up by Soviet propaganda. A monument dedicated to this battle was installed in the village of Noviy Uchkhoz in 1980, at the place where Kolobanov's KV-1 was dug in, due solely to the demands of the villagers. Unfortunately it was impossible to find a KV-1 tank, so an IS-2 heavy tank was installed there instead.[5]
The Soviet victory was the result of a well-planned ambush in advantageous ground and of technical superiority. Most of the German tanks in this battle were Panzer IIs, armed with 20 mm guns, and a few Panzer IIIs armed with 37 mm KwK 36 L/46.5 guns. The German tank guns had neither the range nor the power of the 76 mm main gun of a KV-1, and the narrower track width of the German tanks caused them to become trapped in the swampy ground.

[Mad Russian]

Yes, he became famous for his platoon of KV-1's shooting up PzII's and a few Pz38's. There were no PzIII's with that Panzer Division at that time.

The score was impressive and the Soviets were in desperate need of good news of any kind so they made him a hero.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

Another example of a StuG taking out a KV-2 is found with the 226th StuG Bn.

27 June 1941

The turret was popping up from behind the hill. I opened fire and after several hits he disappeared in the direction of the enemy. His turret was still visible  when an even heavier tank appeared over the slope, massive and powerful. We fired our rounds against it. Round after round left the barrel but the tank continued into the depression despite the numerous hits.

The loader then reported that the ammunition was just about out. We fired a few smoke rounds against the tank which was scooting away to the left. Bu they weren't capable of stopping either. I then decided to ram him. We chased after him, faster and faster, and I was successful in reaching him and ramming him from the rear. From the violence of the impact two of my men were injured. The enemy rolled another 50 meters then stopped.

I left the vehicle with hand grenades and a pistol and jumped behind the Sturmgeschutz. The crew of the Russian tank climbed out of the hull escape hatch and attempted to escape. I had the Sturmgeschutz approach the enemy closely to within 10 meters and followed it on foot. Suddenly, I saw a Russian spying out from behind the left-hand running gear and cock his revolver at me. A hand grenade too care of him.

At that point it was quiet and I discovered six dead soldiers around the mighty steel crate. I reached the tank. All of the hatches with the exception of the access hatch to the engine compartment were closed. When I climbed onto the tank, a machine pistol suddenly fired from within the turret. I threw a couple of hand grenades into the engine compartment.

Some smoke rose from the tank; it was through. When we looked at this felled giant we noticed that the armor on the turret was 95 millimeters. The powerful cannon was 15.2 centimeters; several machine guns were on board armament. We estimated it to be about 60 tons.

Sturmgeschutze Vor! by Franz Kurowski page 83

Many different actions were used to knock them out. Ramming the KV didn't seem to damage it. It seemed to hurt some of the crew. Grenades in the engine compartment is what finally put this tank out of action. The StuG crew did that in close assault after using up all their ammo.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mobius]

And all the talk about Germans able to level the playing field against superior Russian armor because of their command and control and ability to maneuver around to the sides and backs of heavy tanks doesn't mean spit if they are hemmed in a narrow passage.

[Yoozername]

A note regarding PanzerIII and the start of the Russian campaign: There were a mix of 37mm and 50mmL42 at that time.

[Mad Russian]

Germany attacked the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941 with seventeen Panzer Divisions. Those Panzer Divisions contained 120 Panzer I's, 742 Panzer II's, 259 Panzer III"s equipped with the 37mm gun, 737 Panzer III's equipped with the 50mm gun, 409 Panzer IV's equipped with the short 75mm gun, 155 Panzer 35(t) and 625 Panzer 38(t). This gave the Germans a total tank strength of 3047 against the Soviet estimated total of about 24,000.

http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/world- ... june-1941/

Only 8 of the Panzer Divisions had PzIII's with the 37mm gun and only the 18th Panzer Division was fully equipped with them.

Good Hunting.

MR