what about 4E bombers flying max range every night decimating airfield after airfield?
And you stopped reading at that point? Your problem is Mike, anything that even HINTS at something being changed to help the Japanese in this game gets an automatic thumbs down from you and you dont even try to understand what it is people are saying. You need to step back and open your mind for a change. Seriously.
Just out of curiousity, do YOU think its realistic that 4E bombers fly every single night at max range and their morale, fatigue, and aircraft damage remains virtually unaffected? Keeping in mind that B-17s for example are maintenance level 4 aircraft. And from what little I have seen playing allies, they even hit better at night than they do in the daytime. Only reason to fly at all in the day is to use them to shoot down enemy fighters. I had 1 squadron a while back that had over 50 kills, flying max range every day against Zeros and I lost 3 total aircraft from the group. 1 of the 3 to ops losses.
what about 4E bombers flying max range every night decimating airfield after airfield?
And you stopped reading at that point? Your problem is Mike, anything that even HINTS at something being changed to help the Japanese in this game gets an automatic thumbs down from you and you dont even try to understand what it is people are saying. You need to step back and open your mind for a change. Seriously.
Just out of curiousity, do YOU think its realistic that 4E bombers fly every single night at max range and their morale, fatigue, and aircraft damage remains virtually unaffected? Keeping in mind that B-17s for example are maintenance level 4 aircraft. And from what little I have seen playing allies, they even hit better at night than they do in the daytime. Only reason to fly at all in the day is to use them to shoot down enemy fighters. I had 1 squadron a while back that had over 50 kills, flying max range every day against Zeros and I lost 3 total aircraft from the group. 1 of the 3 to ops losses.
Just out of curiousity, do YOU think its realistic that 4E bombers fly every single night at max range and their morale, fatigue, and aircraft damage remains virtually unaffected?
If you are seeing that then you must be running different software than the rest of us.
Then Im running different software than the rest of you. Because I see it.
Here is a random sample after bombing every day from 18 to 23 Feb 42 (6 straight days) from Charter Towers to Buna (16 hexes max range is 18) 100% strike 11,000ft alt:
(Please note, the first 2 days were not intercepted, the last 4 days were)
7BG 22BS
7 aircraft all with ZERO damage
fatigue levels are 10, 14, 7, 0, 10, 7, 0
pilots fatigue is 3, 24, 18, 3, 4, 20, 5, 2, 8, 3
7BG 9BS
6 aircraft damage is 13, 0, 0, 14, 0, 0 (the 13 is not serviceable out 1 day)
fatigue levels are 38 (the damaged one), 7, 13, 36, 20, 8
pilots fatigue is 14, 13, 22, 12, 3, 24, 4, 20, 12, 21, 5
7BG 11BS
7 aircraft all with ZERO damage (1 plane not serviceable out 1 day)
fatigue levels are 32 (the damaged one), 0, 9, 20, 10, 7, 10
pilot fatigue is 10, 4, 0, 15, 0, 19, 9, 0, 0, 2, 0, 3, 0, 3, 9, 5, 0, 2
There are 18 pilots in this group from disbanding other groups into it weeks ago.
I could go on. There are 10 squadrons at Charter Towers, the same 9 flew every day, 5 B-17E and 4 B-17D (1 squadron on training to prevent admin over stacking of the base). More than happy to send the save so the devs can look to see if Im lying.
Oh, another note: this base as of 23 Feb has 68 4E bombers based at it (level 7 airfield now). Only 144 av support present, yet these level 4 maintenance planes are almost all (90%) serviceable every day despite flying every day AND engaging Zeros in combat the last 4 days. Also terribly realistic. (currently 55 of the 68 are operational as of AM turn 24 Feb)
Now mind you these are day missions. imo night missions should double fatigue.
=================================================================================
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 18, 42
Morning Air attack on Buna , at 99,129
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 47 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 22
B-17E Fortress x 23
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
=================================================================================
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 19, 42
Morning Air attack on Buna , at 99,129
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 10
B-17E Fortress x 17
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
=================================================================================
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 20, 42
Morning Air attack on Buna , at 99,129
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 48 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 19
B-17E Fortress x 24
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
Chitose Ku S-1 Det with A6M2 Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
4th Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
=================================================================================
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 21, 42
Morning Air attack on Buna , at 99,129
Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17
Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 12
B-17E Fortress x 21
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
Chitose Ku S-1 Det with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
4th Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
=================================================================================
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 22, 42
Morning Air attack on Buna , at 99,129
Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Raid spotted at 10 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 15
Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 7
B-17E Fortress x 19
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
Chitose Ku S-1 Det with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
4th Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
=================================================================================
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 23, 42
Morning Air attack on Buna , at 99,129
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18
Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 15
B-17E Fortress x 18
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
Chitose Ku S-1 Det with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
4th Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 21000
Raid is overhead
what about 4E bombers flying max range every night decimating airfield after airfield?
And you stopped reading at that point? Your problem is Mike, anything that even HINTS at something being changed to help the Japanese in this game gets an automatic thumbs down from you and you dont even try to understand what it is people are saying. You need to step back and open your mind for a change. Seriously. My mind is WIDE open..., you were the one suggesting that only the crews of 4-engined bombers should get tired..., and that only 4-engined bombers should need maintanence.
Just out of curiousity, do YOU think its realistic that 4E bombers fly every single night at max range and their morale, fatigue, and aircraft damage remains virtually unaffected? Keeping in mind that B-17s for example are maintenance level 4 aircraft. And from what little I have seen playing allies, they even hit better at night than they do in the daytime. Only reason to fly at all in the day is to use them to shoot down enemy fighters. I had 1 squadron a while back that had over 50 kills, flying max range every day against Zeros and I lost 3 total aircraft from the group. 1 of the 3 to ops losses. I don't think it's realistic for ANYBODY'S aircraft to fly every turn without loss to morale, fatigue, or maintanence. That was my point..., and that's exactly what I said.
No, I didnt imply anything. 4E bombers are the single biggest abuse I have seen with it however. Frankly, I have never seen a Japanese player run his Bettys every turn for weeks at a time. Because THEY actually take fatigue and ops losses from constant flights. But I do agree, in fact that was my point. Fatigue needs to be changed. Both increased for missions and decreased in the recovery time.
As for you mind being open, please. Name 1 thing ever where giving the Japanese an advantage in the game was supported by you.
ORIGINAL: CV2
As for you mind being open, please. Name 1 thing ever where giving the Japanese an advantage in the game was supported by you.
You are absolutely correct..., I have never been in favor of "GIVING" the Japanese anything. But to be fair, I have never been in favor of "giving" the Allies anything either. The game is supposed to simulate the Second World War in the Pacific Theater, and as such it should only include things which history shows us were actually available to the participants in that struggle. "Giving" one side or the other anything that they didn't actually have pretty much ruins the idea of "playing" either side.
Some might think it would be "fun" playing Napoleon at Waterloo if the French had some machine guns. Would certainly make it more winnable..., but it wouldn't be playing Napoleon. He had to fight using what he really had, not what was "given" to him by a designer. I'm all for WITP-AE providing the Japanese (and the Allies) with every advantage they actually had historically. But I'm dead set against "giving" either side anything they didn't have just to make the game "fairer" (or more "fun").
Wars are rarely "fair". People start them because they think they have an advantage---which might or might not be slipping away. It may take "two to tango", but it only takes one to start a war. And having started it, they are stuck with the results of any misconceptions they brought to the table. Players should have to play the hand that history dealt..., as only then are they really assuming the role of their historical counter-parts.
ORIGINAL: CV2
As for you mind being open, please. Name 1 thing ever where giving the Japanese an advantage in the game was supported by you.
You are absolutely correct..., I have never been in favor of "GIVING" the Japanese anything. But to be fair, I have never been in favor of "giving" the Allies anything either. The game is supposed to simulate the Second World War in the Pacific Theater, and as such it should only include things which history shows us were actually available to the participants in that struggle. "Giving" one side or the other anything that they didn't actually have pretty much ruins the idea of "playing" either side.
Some might think it would be "fun" playing Napoleon at Waterloo if the French had some machine guns. Would certainly make it more winnable..., but it wouldn't be playing Napoleon. He had to fight using what he really had, not what was "given" to him by a designer. I'm all for WITP-AE providing the Japanese (and the Allies) with every advantage they actually had historically. But I'm dead set against "giving" either side anything they didn't have just to make the game "fairer" (or more "fun").
Wars are rarely "fair". People start them because they think they have an advantage---which might or might not be slipping away. It may take "two to tango", but it only takes one to start a war. And having started it, they are stuck with the results of any misconceptions they brought to the table. Players should have to play the hand that history dealt..., as only then are they really assuming the role of their historical counter-parts.
Not a very open minded attitude. I rest my case.
BTW, wouldnt this count as wanting to give the allies something (just something I found real quick)
ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
I just see your conditions as being far too restrictive for the Allies in terms of their options. Maybe in a game where they also had production options it would be more acceptable.
Not a very open minded attitude. I rest my case. You're right. I take the narrow-minded view that an historical simulation should try and simulate history as much as possible. You shouldn't call something WAR IN THE PACIFIC and then try to make it into CHUTES & LADDERS.
BTW, wouldn't this count as wanting to give the allies something (just something I found real quick)
ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
I just see your conditions as being far too restrictive for the Allies in terms of their options. Maybe in a game where they also had production options it would be more acceptable.
In the context it was written, no. I didn't suggest giving the Allies a production system..., I stated that as the Japanese could change their production and the Allies could not, I though "HERWIN's" proposed victory conditions were too restrictive (agreeing with his opponent). Harry eventually agreed that I might be right, but by then he and his buddy had decided to "give it a go" and see how it worked out. Harry is a very reasonable fellow, so I wished the both of them well in their experience.
I wouldn't use this HR myself as it would eliminate perfectly logical, non-gamey moves like one that I employ on turn one.
I usually divide the Kota Bahru invasion force into two of the * TFs (the ones that get the first turn movement bonus). One TF hits Kota Bahru as planned. The other lands one hex N of Kota Bahru (a non-base, non-dot hex). The troops that unload here race to Georgetown in an attempt to cut off the two brigades in Alor Star. To me, this doesn't seem illogical or gamey as there is a friendly base right next door (Patani). This HR would prevent this from occurring, yet I don't feel there is anything odd about such a landing.
I wouldn't use this HR myself as it would eliminate perfectly logical, non-gamey moves like one that I employ on turn one.
I usually divide the Kota Bahru invasion force into two of the * TFs (the ones that get the first turn movement bonus). One TF hits Kota Bahru as planned. The other lands one hex N of Kota Bahru (a non-base, non-dot hex). The troops that unload here race to Georgetown in an attempt to cut off the two brigades in Alor Star. To me, this doesn't seem illogical or gamey as there is a friendly base right next door (Patani). This HR would prevent this from occurring, yet I don't feel there is anything odd about such a landing.
Wouldn't the reduced rate of movement, through the Jungle with no road, remove any benefit of avoiding the day or two of resistance that the Kota Baru defenders are able to offer?
I wouldn't use this HR myself as it would eliminate perfectly logical, non-gamey moves like one that I employ on turn one.
I usually divide the Kota Bahru invasion force into two of the * TFs (the ones that get the first turn movement bonus). One TF hits Kota Bahru as planned. The other lands one hex N of Kota Bahru (a non-base, non-dot hex). The troops that unload here race to Georgetown in an attempt to cut off the two brigades in Alor Star. To me, this doesn't seem illogical or gamey as there is a friendly base right next door (Patani). This HR would prevent this from occurring, yet I don't feel there is anything odd about such a landing.
Wouldn't the reduced rate of movement, through the Jungle with no road, remove any benefit of avoiding the day or two of resistance that the Kota Baru defenders are able to offer?
No, there's actually a nice road right there where the troops get dropped off. And it leads directly to Georgetown. If you land here and move inland one hex (along roads), you will cut off the 2 Indian brigades at Alor Star. That's two less units that will be defending Singapore.
My PBEM opponent and I are wrapping up the Guadalcanal scenario and will be starting the Grand Campaign soon (and to all those who advised me at the outset on this game, yes, I got pimp-slapped). One of our considerations is the house rules we will play by. My question is this: almost all of the AARs I've read have a house rule that amphibious landings can only occur at bases or dot-hexes. We are curious why so many experienced players adopt this house rule. Does it aid in the balance of play, help the offense defense, Allies or Japanaese? All the world wonders!
Actually, the way the rule is usually stated is no LANDINGS at except at bases/dot hexes.
This then covers the para-landings behind the lines that cut supply lines... yes, it is possible (or was in WITP regular) to land paras "behind the lines" although the results were highly unpredictable (they tended not to go where they were ordered to drop).
I wouldn't use this HR myself as it would eliminate perfectly logical, non-gamey moves like one that I employ on turn one.
I usually divide the Kota Bahru invasion force into two of the * TFs (the ones that get the first turn movement bonus). One TF hits Kota Bahru as planned. The other lands one hex N of Kota Bahru (a non-base, non-dot hex). The troops that unload here race to Georgetown in an attempt to cut off the two brigades in Alor Star. To me, this doesn't seem illogical or gamey as there is a friendly base right next door (Patani). This HR would prevent this from occurring, yet I don't feel there is anything odd about such a landing.
Wouldn't the reduced rate of movement, through the Jungle with no road, remove any benefit of avoiding the day or two of resistance that the Kota Baru defenders are able to offer?
No, there's actually a nice road right there where the troops get dropped off. And it leads directly to Georgetown. If you land here and move inland one hex (along roads), you will cut off the 2 Indian brigades at Alor Star. That's two less units that will be defending Singapore.
That is a good idea. Never thought of that.
" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley
