Night Bombing Overpowered?

[apbarog]

In my scenario 1 campaign game, my Allied opponent has used night bombing almost every night of the war. We do not have a house rule for this, so I have no problem with it, and will use it in the future when I can. My Japanese expansion stopped in May 1942, when I declined to go to Australia or India. My expansion range was fairly historical, with the extra captures of Noumea and Suva. My opponent started his counterattacking in the summer of 1943. From the beginning of the war, and especially during the year of little activity, he was able to use night bombing on a daily basis, hitting my bases in Burma, Port Moresby, Milne Bay, Rossel Island, and in Timor. Here is my perspective:

1. The Allied player is able to use night bombing as a training mission. This is only possible because the operational losses are at least as low as daylight bombing, maybe lower. You could not fly day after day and gain pilot skills if losses weren't so low.

2. The effect of bombings has generally been minimal. I suspect that the night bombing became more effective over time when the pilot skills increased to a high level. When that happened, bases in Burma started to be able to be shut down with just night bombing.

3. Japanese use of fighters at night is not effective. This is how it should be.

4. Allied heavy bombers shoot down too many Japanese fighters, even at night. Their effectiveness in daylight has been discussed in many other threads. I found that they are just as good at night. I had examples of putting up 30 Tojo's against 30 B24's, at night, losing 5 Tojo's to air-to-air, losing 4 Tojo's to ops losses, and having 0 B24's lost to any cause. I'd expect few, if any, losses for either side at night.

Put all these together, and the Japanese player has to abandon bases in range of Allied heavies. Against highly skilled Allied bomber pilots, they either get bombed on the ground, or shot in the air, at night.

My one suggestion is that the use of any aircraft, at night, for either side, should result in enough ops losses to negate any possibility of training bomber crews with the exclusive use of night bombing.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Yakface


OK - you asked

Calcutta, Ledo, Imphal, Silchar, Chittagong, Comilla, Cox's Bazaar, Dacca, Tennant Creek, Alice Spring, Koumac, Umnack, Adak, Chunking, Nanyang, Changsha. Townsville.

Soon to be - Geraldton, Cookstown, Cairns

Couldn't tell you where all his aircraft are, but suffice it to say, I have bases on every front that can launch that sort of attack. If not, any size (5) could be built up to 8 which is sufficient and there is not lack of those anywhere.

Actually the whole thing is irrelevant, for two reasons

1. The 100 plane attack was coordinated from 3 bases - Ledo, Silchar and Comilla
2. My issue is not with the size of the attack, but with the number of base hits per plane - be there 100 or only 9

So you answered, sort of (Alice Springs? Really? To operate scores of heavy bombers from?) A, but not B. If he knows you have hundreds of heavy bombers in that range, and he has no AA sufficient to take out many of them at 6000 feet, and he parks his whole air force there with no AA, he deserves it.

That sort of time-on-target coordination, BTW, from THOSE bases at those separations, ought to be what you're complainig about. At night, in storms, from LEDO to COMILLA? Are you freaking kididng me? We'd have great difficulty doing that today, with sat comms and GPS.

As for hits, I'm not that concerned. If they could find the field, at 6000 feet, with those size bomb loads . . . That's the least of your concerns.

[Yakface]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Yakface


OK - you asked

Calcutta, Ledo, Imphal, Silchar, Chittagong, Comilla, Cox's Bazaar, Dacca, Tennant Creek, Alice Spring, Koumac, Umnack, Adak, Chunking, Nanyang, Changsha. Townsville.

Soon to be - Geraldton, Cookstown, Cairns

Couldn't tell you where all his aircraft are, but suffice it to say, I have bases on every front that can launch that sort of attack. If not, any size (5) could be built up to 8 which is sufficient and there is not lack of those anywhere.

Actually the whole thing is irrelevant, for two reasons

1. The 100 plane attack was coordinated from 3 bases - Ledo, Silchar and Comilla
2. My issue is not with the size of the attack, but with the number of base hits per plane - be there 100 or only 9

So you answered, sort of (Alice Springs? Really? To operate scores of heavy bombers from?) A, but not B. If he knows you have hundreds of heavy bombers in that range, and he has no AA sufficient to take out many of them at 6000 feet, and he parks his whole air force there with no AA, he deserves it.

That sort of time-on-target coordination, BTW, from THOSE bases at those separations, ought to be what you're complainig about. At night, in storms, from LEDO to COMILLA? Are you freaking kididng me? We'd have great difficulty doing that today, with sat comms and GPS.

As for hits, I'm not that concerned. If they could find the field, at 6000 feet, with those size bomb loads . . . That's the least of your concerns.

Oops sorry, yes Alice is only size 7 - only 88 bombers form there. He's in Daly Waters, so Alice is front line (for 4E's at least)

I agree with you on the coordination thing, however it doesn't matter. Coordination is only important if there is opposition. At night I don't care whether they go in in one group or as single aircraft. Bomb hits per bomber doesn't change so overall damage doesn't.

I think your last point is a good one. These bombers are finding the airfield in thunderstorms from 700 miles away. Never seem to fail to locate and ops losses certainly don't reflect the 'can't find my home base' which must have gone on.

[PresterJohn001]

From my experience i think night bombing is a bit overpowered but a fighter unit on night duty reduces effectiveness considerably. A tweak may be helpful but its not out by much (don't want to make it completely pointless).

[Yakface]

OK here's some hard data. Picked a week at random.

27th Feb


Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 1 damaged



Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 29

6 bomber, 35 hits


28th Feb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 4

Allied aircraft losses
B-17F Fortress: 1 damaged



Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 12

7 bombers, 15 hits


1st March


Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 107 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 20
B-24D1 Liberator x 15
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 4

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 3 damaged



Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 41

42 bombers, 48 hits

Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Overcast

2nd March

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 16
B-24D1 Liberator x 9
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 9

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 damaged


Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 121

37 bombers, 129 hits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Moderate rain
Raid detected at 108 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-15-II Babs: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 4 damaged



Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 33

13 bombers, 38 hits


3rd March


Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 20
B-24D1 Liberator x 9
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 8

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 5 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged


Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 59

40 Bombers, 64 hits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 6

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 4 damaged



Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 30

9 Bombers, 34 hits

4th March


Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 16
B-24D1 Liberator x 10
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 4

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 damaged


Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 39

33 Bombers, 39 hits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Overcast
Raid spotted at 54 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged



Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 6

3 Bombers, 9 hits


5th March


Night Air attack on Katherine , at 76,128

Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 109 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 3
B-24D Liberator x 12
B-24D1 Liberator x 3
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 5

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator II: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 damaged



Airbase hits 8
Runway hits 34

23 Bombers, 42 hits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Broome , at 62,127

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
B-17F Fortress x 6

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 1 destroyed by flak



Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 35

9 Bombers, 40 hits


Total bombs dropped: 2016
Total hits: 493
24.5% hit rate

As a general comment, weather was slightly worse this week than average - a number of thunderstorms/sever storms. No 'clear' turns

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Yakface

I think your last point is a good one. These bombers are finding the airfield in thunderstorms from 700 miles away. Never seem to fail to locate and ops losses certainly don't reflect the 'can't find my home base' which must have gone on.

Yes, if they can find the base, they have intel on runway lay-outs and 6000 feet is low. Just fly down the heading and let go.

Most of this thread is about flying over jungle, but the game code has to allow night ops over ocean too, and there the visibility is better. You can tell land from sea in low light, so if your dead reckoning is half good and you can see any landmarks (volcanic mountains?) once you find the island, you can line up for an attack. As before, Japanese strikes on Wake from 1000+ miles in a previous thread.

My experience has been that night effectiveness is pretty poor, possibly becasue the AI almost always sends up fighters. I do it to harrass, but it's an open question if it's worth it in supply expenditure for what I get from it in Burma.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Yakface

OK here's some hard data. Picked a week at random.

Per Alfred's point, a hit isn't necessarily one bomb exploding. "Hits" is tied to formulae that result in supply destruction and damage percentages. If you want to spend some time, you can start a head-to-head mini-game with FOW off, and the combat reports will tell you exactly how many supply points were destroyed in each case. You could then corelate it to bomber model, bomb size, etc. This is a case of simplicity in player feedback covering up a lot of under-the-hood.

[khyberbill]

I do some night bombing. At first, I found that an altitude of 5-6k was very effective. Then my foe put some AA in the hex and balloons/blimps. My losses didnt seem so bad, one or two B-17s or B24s a mission. Ooops... I am not making any more B-17s and few B24s. Now I only night bomb at 11k. Still have some losses from AA but no more barrage balloons-I am not sure what their maximum altitude is but for sure it is below 11k. Not nearly as effective bombing anymore. I just do it to keep my foe on his toes.

[Nomad]

As far as I can tell, having some fighters up on night CAP will seriously degrade the bombers accuracy. They will not shoot many if any down, they will usually damage a couple but the bombers will have a hard time hitting much.

[Yakface]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Yakface

OK here's some hard data. Picked a week at random.

Per Alfred's point, a hit isn't necessarily one bomb exploding. "Hits" is tied to formulae that result in supply destruction and damage percentages.

I'm fairly certain that one hit is one exploding bomb.

That's not actually what Alfred said. His point was A hit rate per bomber takes no account of the number of bombs carried and how big they are. Taking this into account I have changed the calculation to a hit rate per bomb dropped.

The average nightly result was 70 500lb hit delivered by 32 bombers dropping 285 bombs. Those averaged results with a tiny fraction of the airforce over 3 or 4 days are fairly clearly curtains for 1 maybe 2 bases.

I've got 4E's 350 available and god knows how many 2E. Things don't roll out straight line, but realistically IMO I have sufficient bombers and sufficient airfields to close all bases in - for example, the entire Burma theatre using just night bombing.

If you want to spend some time, you can start a head-to-head mini-game with FOW off, and the combat reports will tell you exactly how many supply points were destroyed in each case. You could then corelate it to bomber model, bomb size, etc. This is a case of simplicity in player feedback covering up a lot of under-the-hood.

Overkill - life's too short.

[Yakface]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

As far as I can tell, having some fighters up on night CAP will seriously degrade the bombers accuracy. They will not shoot many if any down, they will usually damage a couple but the bombers will have a hard time hitting much.

I'll have a go at that. You will see from the second post in this thread I did try night intercepts with 120 fighters. Although they did drop the hit rate to almost nothing my fighters got slaughtered in return. Maybe small numbers of Nicks will be enough to put the bombers off their stride without taking serious losses.

[Yakface]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

I do some night bombing. At first, I found that an altitude of 5-6k was very effective. Then my foe put some AA in the hex and balloons/blimps. My losses didnt seem so bad, one or two B-17s or B24s a mission. Ooops... I am not making any more B-17s and few B24s.

...and then you start building B24D1's, PBY Liberators, British Liberators, B24J's and then some B29's....

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: Yakface

ORIGINAL: Nomad

As far as I can tell, having some fighters up on night CAP will seriously degrade the bombers accuracy. They will not shoot many if any down, they will usually damage a couple but the bombers will have a hard time hitting much.

I'll have a go at that. You will see from the second post in this thread I did try night intercepts with 120 fighters. Although they did drop the hit rate to almost nothing my fighters got slaughtered in return. Maybe small numbers of Nicks will be enough to put the bombers off their stride without taking serious losses.

That result does not make my statement true. I said nothing about and losses expected. I wonder if it had to do with using LRCAP? I don't remember seeing that problem using CAP( I have not played any turns as Japan for weeks. )

Maybe one my opponets, Puhis, can shed some light on his losses against my bombers? With FOW I don't want to make any claims of his losses.

[EUBanana]

There's some funny business going on with bomber versus night fighters. The night fighters seem to get creamed. The bombers do considerably better at shooting down fighters at night then they do during the day - presumably they wouldn't be able to hit a bean really at night.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Yakface

Overkill - life's too short.

Your call. I guess it's easier to complain.

[Yakface]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Yakface

Overkill - life's too short.

Your call. I guess it's easier to complain.

Lol - I've spent hours working counting the hits 43 days of attacks, Working out the average, Counting the numbers of bombs dropped and the average hit per bomb, formatting the AAR to make things easier to read.

My statement was not an indication that I am unwilling to put the time in to get important features out. Just that what you are suggesting is of no value to the discussion. Working out, how many supply points are lost for a particular bomb size, to be brutal, is beyond pointless. I and most others know what the effect of 70x500lb bombs per night hitting a base.

[CV2]

The basic flaw of this game is it assumes that there is only 1 airfield in a hex. This of course is NOT true, but it is far too easy to "close" a base. Even a tiny island like Iwo Jima had 3 (or at least had 3 in the works).

[brian800000]

I don't have that strong of an opinion on night bombing of airfields, and am not that educated on the topic. But I don't agree with house rules that prevent Japan from being reduced to rubble from night bombing, because that is what happened.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: CV2

The basic flaw of this game is it assumes that there is only 1 airfield in a hex. This of course is NOT true, but it is far too easy to "close" a base. Even a tiny island like Iwo Jima had 3 (or at least had 3 in the works).

Not neccesarily. As far as the game is concerned it is an abstraction of the total air capacity in this hex.
What you make of that is entirely you decision, so if you want to assume you got 3 airfields at Iwo Jima, go ahead. [;)]

Edit: I agree that small bases are too easy to close. I think this was already mentioned some time.
A dust strip with 2 tents usually is very hard to close down.

This does not apply to large airfields which I think are quite right.

[HansBolter]

I haven't read every post but have skimmed and gotten the gist. I haven't seen one person comment on altitude. Don't most people use a house rule requiring 4Es to operate at 10k or higher? Could the low altitude be having an impact on the effectiveness?


I have only played through early '43, but my experience with night fighters is that they experience a plethora of mechanical failures. At first I thought it was just becuse Blenhiem 1Fs were worthless planes, but as soon as I assigned some Fulmer IIs to night CAP they started suffering the same oil pressure problems as the Blennies. What is it about night that causes oil pressure to drop? Why is it that no night fighter ever successfully intercepts because it's oil pressure fails?