OT: Massive 8.9 quake in northern Japan

[JWE]

The Japanese are a Great people; more importantly, they are a great People. They have been through trials like this before and recognize that suffering increases as you work down. Even the greatest among them feels the obligation towards the least.

If you have a Japanese friend, send them your donations directly (direct bank wire transfers are up and running, and I know that BofA is doing them to Japan for free). Your Japanese friend WILL see to it that your funds are used appropriately. If you don't know anybody in Japan, please make an effort to find and donate to a Japanese relief organization. Those folks have a little bit better handle on how funds may be best spent to help those in most need, in the Japanese sense of things.

In my experience (limited to be sure) Japanese relief organizations spend 98% of every dollar received on effective assistance. Their staff are volunteers, in every sense of the word, and I think the various Chairmen (also volunteers) get an annual salary of 10 Yen.

International Relief Agencies are good, they are very good. Internal Japanese relief, however, is a teensy bit better in that it's more directed. So .. if you got a Japanese buddy, empty your wallet and trust it will be put to good use. If you don't got a Japanese buddy, empty your wallet anyway and trust that it will be put to good use.

[offenseman]

I have a deep respect for the Japanese people and am sure that they will overcome this better than many others.  Let us all hope that the final tally is not as high as some are predicting this morning.  A terrible tragedy.

[Cap Mandrake]

From the ABC News link above;

Workers doused the stricken reactor with seawater to try to avert catastrophe, in what US experts warned was an "act of desperation" that, in the worst-case scenario, could foreshadow a much more serious disaster.

[X(]No kidding. If they are literally pumping in sewater into the containment building it means they have no way to cycle it. If it gets too hot they will have to vent it as steam into the atmosphere and it is going to have some nasty stuff in it because it will come in direct contact with damaged fuel rods. It also means the reactor is dead forever. I think this is uncharted territory. Let's hope the containment structure doesn/t fail. This could easily be worse than Three Mile Island.

The plant's operator said that so much water had evaporated from the No. 3 reactor that at one stage the top three metres of the fuel rods were exposed to the air, although they were later covered again.

[X(][X(] 3 meters of a couple of dozen fuel rods sticking out of the water? Oh, mama. Sounds like a very close call. I bet nobody at that plant has slept in days.

[Anonymous]

I have sent some donations to people who are friends of JWE and can say they are just like that. They do not use money to help relatives who have money. They use money to help 3rd cousins and even friends who live in small houses by the shore that got sweeped away. Yes I think the Japnese relief people are best. And if you have a japnese friend it will make the bond even stronger if you trust them with your money.

MO

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Just terrible... [:(]

NY Times
Satellite Photos of Japan, Before and After the Quake and Tsunami

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011 ... unami.html


Leo "Apollo11"

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

This could easily be worse than Three Mile Island.

There were no injuries from Three Mile Island. Even the workers at the plant who were closest and had the highest exposure got less than one chest x-ray worth. The public got none at all.

We'll have to see what happens of course, but realistically the issue is damage to the reactors. Any dangerous exposure to people is still very, very unlikely. Pumping seawater into the containment building is less likely an act of desperation than one of the contingencies they planned for in the event it was needed. That would probably be a large volume and therefore spread out the heat quite a bit.

[SargeantTex]

you have to remember a story dealing with nuclear reactors scares the hell out of people and glues people to the news so they are going to hype it up as much as possible!!

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

This could easily be worse than Three Mile Island.

There were no injuries from Three Mile Island. Even the workers at the plant who were closest and had the highest exposure got less than one chest x-ray worth. The public got none at all.

We'll have to see what happens of course, but realistically the issue is damage to the reactors. Any dangerous exposure to people is still very, very unlikely. Pumping seawater into the containment building is less likely an act of desperation than one of the contingencies they planned for in the event it was needed. That would probably be a large volume and therefore spread out the heat quite a bit.

True, no acute radiation toxicity but there was a non-trivial radiation release from TMI and it was a PR disaster and a BIG cleanup bill. It does seem the Japanese government is doing a good job of advance information...of course, you don't really know that until later.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: SargeantTex

you have to remember a story dealing with nuclear reactors scares the hell out of people and glues people to the news so they are going to hype it up as much as possible!!

Agreed, but there is also not supposed to be radioactive Cesium floating around outside the building.

[witpqs]

Non-trivial release? I don't even know what that means because it's so vague that whoever claimed it could have meant many things. There was no exposure at all to the public; acute, sub-acute, chronic, toxic, non-toxic, or otherwise. There has been a massive myth built up as part of the anti-nuclear campaign over the decades since that event.

BTW, I've read today that the reactors in peril in Japan are of a design that normally runs with part of the core above water.

[SargeantTex]

did the tsunami actually hit Sendai cause Sendai has a million people in it tried to see what elevation it sits on I know it basically starts at coast then spreads out into hilly region I am afraid the 10,000 dead is gonna expand as the days go on we could possibly see up to 50,000 dead or more Corporate America needs to shift its manufacturing to Japan believe me I dont mind made in Japan near as much as made in china.(not trying to flame or troll just expressing opinion)

[SargeantTex]

either way nuclear energy is still the safest most cost effective energy besides wind and solar but we only have so much real estate to put wind or solar farms and the number of jobs created by green energy is miniscuel compared to Nuclear,coal,gas this is the last political post I will make cause unfortunately this is about to become a debate on energy!! lets focus back on Japan please!!

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Non-trivial release? I don't even know what that means because it's so vague that whoever claimed it could have meant many things. There was no exposure at all to the public; acute, sub-acute, chronic, toxic, non-toxic, or otherwise. There has been a massive myth built up as part of the anti-nuclear campaign over the decades since that event.

BTW, I've read today that the reactors in peril in Japan are of a design that normally runs with part of the core above water.

This is true. There was no acute injury and there probably was no longer term injury but according to the NRC, there were perhaps 13 million curies relased (or about 1/800 of all the nasty stuff confined in the containment structure). Most of it was apparently Xenon so it only afffected Xenon-based life. Th PR consuquences were, as you say, immense. A big pile of molten uranium causes anxiety.

Didn't know that about some of the fuel rods sticking out of the water by design. I guess the pressurized steam "cools" them. As I said, it seems the Japanese government seems to be doing a good job of disciplined and timely press releases.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: SargeantTex

either way nuclear energy is still the safest most cost effective energy besides wind and solar but we only have so much real estate to put wind or solar farms and the number of jobs created by green energy is miniscuel compared to Nuclear,coal,gas this is the last political post I will make cause unfortunately this is about to become a debate on energy!! lets focus back on Japan please!!

Hardly a debate. I am pretty sure we agree, but point taken.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: SargeantTex

did the tsunami actually hit Sendai ..

Yes, I think it did. I believe that video of the bridge with the tsunami rolling under it was in Sendai. I suspect there are many steel multistory buidlings in Sendai that can take the wave so there are places to take refuge.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

There was no acute injury and there probably was no longer term injury but according to the NRC, there were perhaps 13 million curies relased (or about 1/800 of all the nasty stuff confined in the containment structure). Most of it was apparently Xenon so it only afffected Xenon-based life.

[:D]

All of the monitoring stations nearby recorded no contamination, so whatever was released went up and dispersed.

The saddest part of the PR campaign is that designs now available that can't even fail in the ways TMI did are today vehemently opposed. There are designs that are entirely self-contained, built at a factory, then taken on-site and buried. They function essentially like a battery sitting there underground. Anyway, I doubt that the world as a whole will get away from nuclear power, but certain countries will or will have to mightily resist the push to abandon it.

[windlessmill7777]

Today 11:01am No.3 reactor outer structure of Fukushima Daiichi(First) nuclear plant explodes (maybe hydrogen explosion)

[witpqs]

The Hydrogen explosions were in the (I think they called it) "limited containment building", which is meant to slow down the escape of gases that have short-lived isotopes. The actual containment vessel is apparently all steel an is inside that structure. After the Hydrogen explosion occurred at the other reactor in the complex yesterday they confirmed that the steel containment vessel was undamaged.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The Hydrogen explosions were in the (I think they called it) "limited containment building", which is meant to slow down the escape of gases that have short-lived isotopes. The actual containment vessel is apparently all steel an is inside that structure. After the Hydrogen explosion occurred at the other reactor in the complex yesterday they confirmed that the steel containment vessel was undamaged.

So there are actually 3 layers? The reactor vessel...then the heavy duty containment building...then the limited containment buidling?

The containment buidlings I have seen around here are big-ass concrete and rebar structures but this thing is from 1970 and based on the latest 1960's technology.

BTW...that is an impressive explosion. You can see the shock wave from miles away.

[witpqs]

At least those 3 layers you mention - there might be multiple ones inside that mongo steel building but I don't happen to have heard those details.

This is different than all the ones I have seen in the US (driving by). I read that there are x number of similar designs in the US, however that's the reactor itself. The containment the NRC requires in the US includes the big-ass concrete outer building that you described. How many layers are inside those I don't know, but I'm sure it's multiple layers.