When will Panzer IIIn get used?

[kirkgregerson]

I know that the issue of 'tanks' sitting in the pool due to TOE specs of units is WAD. But it's something that has always annoyed the heck out of me with the game. I've had situations where large amounts of tanks or other equipment (arty for example) will be able to accumulate in production pools (manpower and armaments are avail) and not be sent to the front as I would hope.

I pray for the day when players are able to tweak some of these TOE's or somehow allow this surplus equipment to be used. We have seen this before with a players having 200+ tigers sitting in the pool, which to me was just ridiculous and unimaginable to ever have occurred in the east front campaign. Think about the build up to Operation Citadel in which each and every tiger and panther possible was send directly to the front. Some not even being properly painted unit they reach their unit on the frontline. So I think it's VERY hypocritical of WitE mechanics to try and mimic the blizzard effects of that first winter as HISTORICAL, yet it can let large pools of important equipment be denied to axis units on the eastern front. From what I understand these pools are specifically for the east front and no other fronts.

Does anybody understand the rational of this? Or are we just dealing with a concept created by a certain design agenda in WitE with respect to unit TOE?

IMO, it's not really a bug, but an aspect of the game that needs to be modified.

[PyleDriver]

You inputs on the first winter are welcome. Hell weve been working on it for 3 years, its better now but I feel were short of historic. Theres alot of smart guys playing this game, throw out your inputs...

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

PzIIIN were used as support for heavy armor battalions, check your Tiger battalions, PzIIIN should be there.

Or with the Pz Grds.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iii.htm

[PeeDeeAitch]

I think the best solution is to take them and add them to all the Tigers that were complained about last month. That way we can have PzIIIn/Tigers (with Berkut's 105mm AA guns) in some sort of super weapon. Then, of course, make them black (far cooler) and have super SS tanks!

[TAIL_GUNNER]

In my 42 GC I get 8 tigers/week, from the start of production it has been this way. 125 weeks of that would mean I get 1000 tanks less than the figure quoted above during the same period (I am in feb '44 now and still 8 tigers are produced each turn). So I would not be so sure to draw any conclusions on the "production for all theatres" thing. of course I have the same problem with most units not wanting/daring to use the tiger and king tigers so the majority are sitting in the pool (this has been discussed to death before, we will never get a switch tank equipment option (as exists for aircrafts) so game "features" as e.g. pz divisions having zero or very few T-70:s, T-34s etc. in their listed equipment instead of using the piles of tigers being available will stay).

Edit: Lol ? 125 x 1 = 125 tanks less not 1000 tanks less

Well I must apologize and admit I was wrong with my numbers. I was looking at the Locations tab using the Generic data.

Using the correct Scenario data I see that the Tiger factory in Kassel starts at size '1', with a max expansion of '8'.

So, rough guess the factory and reinforcements account for about ~1000 Tigers....still maybe a bit high.

[Q-Ball]

The 1943 Scenario starts with 213 IIIn's deployed to Panzer Divisions. There is no slot for CS Tanks in the TOE's of course, but they are there.

Either the 1943 scenario is not accurate and needs to be changed, or the TOE's need to be changed to allow the IIIn to be used.

AchtungPanzer sez IIIns served in PzG Divisions and Tiger Bns, but not necessarily Panzer Divisions.

I have to believe they served on the Eastern Front.

Maybe the easiest is to add a slot to PzG divisions for CS tanks, and add that to TOE

[Baron von Beer]

Yep. Believe some of the TO&Es have their slots maxed out though. Stug Battalions are an "easy" end user modification as well.

In all fairness, the Pz IIIn not being used isn't the same as the Tiger. Tiger is a case of production being averaged so you wind up with more than historical numbers early on, possibly coupled with less than historical losses. The IIIn is a case of it simply having no unit to go to for a good portion of the run so once production is completed you potentially have hundreds of them that cost armaments points to build but never left the showroom floor.

EG the Tiger battalions. Their TO&E from 8/42->7/43 has them, but there is a combined total of 14 months present from all Tiger Battalions in that period. They can be used to fill in the Pz IVF slots in some of the divisions that retain CS slots through the end of 42. Believe a couple retain single digits of CS tanks part way into 43.

In that same period something like ~550 Pz IIIns are slated to be produced, assuming there are sufficient resources for their production. Romania has a IIIn import element, but has no CS tanks in any of their TO&E.

[TAIL_GUNNER]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The 1943 Scenario starts with 213 IIIn's deployed to Panzer Divisions. There is no slot for CS Tanks in the TOE's of course, but they are there.

Either the 1943 scenario is not accurate and needs to be changed, or the TOE's need to be changed to allow the IIIn to be used.

AchtungPanzer sez IIIns served in PzG Divisions and Tiger Bns, but not necessarily Panzer Divisions.

I have to believe they served on the Eastern Front.

Maybe the easiest is to add a slot to PzG divisions for CS tanks, and add that to TOE

If there's no slot for them, then after turn 1, all those Panzer IIIN are gonna go right into the pool..

They were used in Panzer divisions, often as a substitute for the long gun version of the Panzer IV.

The official Panzer strength for a battalion in 1943 called for 93 Panzer IV. But just one expample the 5th Panzer Division report right before Citadelle shows 76 Panzer IV, and 17 Panzer IIIn.

Another interesting fact, all the Panzer IIIN were made by converting older models (mostly IIIL and IIIM).

Would be awesome if this game could somehow incorporate production with these types of conversions.

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Either the 1943 scenario is not accurate and needs to be changed[/b], or the TOE's need to be changed to allow the IIIn to be used.

Ahem

tm.asp?m=2789369

[lycortas]

Yes, the Panzer Grenadier '42 division did not generally have Mk IIIm's but IIIn's. So, i have switched that in the DB. Also, the '43 heavy tank battalions kept 7 (1 platoon) of IIIn's each. Modded that as well.

Also, the IIIJ (L60) is seriously under produced. I checked 'free' IIIJ's coming in with units and what not and your max production and it is only ~40% or so of the actual IIIJ (L60) and IIIL production. Should be 1700 or so built.

On the other hand the IIIm was rarely used and should be removed from some of the TOEs, such as the 42 Panzer Grenadier. Most IIIm's were converted to flame tanks or Stugs.

Armour is wrong on a few vehicles as well, i am working on this.

Mike

[Scook_99]

My question is, how do your stockpiles look in January, 1945? Productions runs /= how long a tank was used. If you have 2-300 Pz-IIIN's sitting around come January, 1945, then I see an issue. If you popped them all into units in 1942, then get bled of tanks so your units have no replacements, we would see the opposite side of this arguing the Germans have no replacements. I do get it though, as our Russian opponents can spend some Admin Points and <poof> empty surplus pool.

[lycortas]

'43 panzer grenadier divisions don't use cs tanks, so in '6 '43 or so your units will get rid of their IIIn's just as the production ends.

Symmetry... tastes like zombies!

Mike

[Montbrun]

Pz.III Production:

[Montbrun]

StuG.III Production:

[Montbrun]

Source:

Jentz, Thomas L., "Panzer Tracts No. 23, Panzer Production from 1933 to 1945," Panzer Tracts, Boyds, MD, 2011.

Mr. Jetz has taken the surviving Waffenamt records, and cross-referenced them, and supplemented them, with actual production and assemby plant records. I highly recommend the book.

Brad

[lycortas]

Brad, do you know if there is a reason for so few IIIJ60's and IIIL's in the game? There are only a bit more than a thousand as far as i can tell, and we will only see 800 or so with the system of some production going west.

Mike

[Montbrun]

ORIGINAL: lycortas

Brad, do you know if there is a reason for so few IIIJ60's and IIIL's in the game? There are only a bit more than a thousand as far as i can tell, and we will only see 800 or so with the system of some production going west.

Mike

I'm not sure, but keep in mind that all of the Pz.IIIJs were redesignated Pz.IIILs in 03/42, so you want to look at the combination of the two for totals.

[TAIL_GUNNER]

Good stuff Brad...I love these type of discussions.

As far as the IIIN, here are some quotes from Jentz's own Panzertruppen:

Page 215

On 19 August 1942, the Panzer units were notified that in the future, the Pz.Kpfw.III with the 7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24 would be issued instead of the Pz.Kpfw.III with the 5 cm Kw.K.39 L/60. Distribution was planned so that every leichte Panzer-Kompanie would receive a Zug of five Pz.Kpfw.III (7.5 cm Kw.K. L/24 )

Page 219 (regarding the reforming 6., 7., and 10. Panzer Divisions.)

There was no uniformity in issuing the Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N with the 7.5 cm Kw.K L/24 gun. Panzer-Regiment 7 didn't receive any, Panzer-Regiment 11 received 32-35, and Panzer-Regiment 25 received 14 Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N.

[Montbrun]

Yup - a Pz.III was a Pz.III - regardless of armament.

[lycortas]

That is good stuff. I am probably just going to mod them in for the Pzg divisions and the Tiger battalions ('43+). The pazer regiments it was so random.

Or i could be less lazy and get rid of the CS tank category, and just make them all medium tanks. That way a IVE could be replaced by a IIIM or a IIIN or a IVG.

Mike