A victory using an exploit would be an hollow victory indeed. That's like saying, "I can't beat you normally, so I'm going to use every snipe advantage I can to do it."
It's the win-at-all costs mentality that's applauded when applied honorably, and reviled when it's out of bounds. Some just don't realize that there's a line there.
Transport bug and cheating opponent
Moderators: Joel Billings, Tankerace, siRkid
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Admiral DadMan
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Wilhammer
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There IS another side to this. not that I agree with it.
Anything Goes.
It is a Wargame, and just like in real war, the goal is to win efficiently, and thus any gap is worth exploiting.
A prime example of this was Ultra or the braking of IJN codes. Opening and reading other people's mail is considered to be very poor taste and even dis-honorable, but it helped us win the war in no small way.
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If you ever played ASL, you can likely relate to this. Some guy, who you never played, wants to play you bad, and he has a scenario picked out.
You start it up, and you get to a turn when you move a bunch of stuff, and the guy wants to Op fire you. But this is no ordinary Defensive Fire. No. A careful student of board whatever, he has found that if he traces LOS along the hex spines, through woods and buildings, 38 hexes away, his HMG and 88 combo has seen EVERY unit you just moved (this being turn 1, they are all in march formation) and he opens up wrecking the battle before it stops, and then the guy won't rematch you! He has wupped you using the Hex Spine exploit instead of his own Spine.
Blacklisted that sucker, and warned my buds.
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Anything Goes.
It is a Wargame, and just like in real war, the goal is to win efficiently, and thus any gap is worth exploiting.
A prime example of this was Ultra or the braking of IJN codes. Opening and reading other people's mail is considered to be very poor taste and even dis-honorable, but it helped us win the war in no small way.
=====================================
If you ever played ASL, you can likely relate to this. Some guy, who you never played, wants to play you bad, and he has a scenario picked out.
You start it up, and you get to a turn when you move a bunch of stuff, and the guy wants to Op fire you. But this is no ordinary Defensive Fire. No. A careful student of board whatever, he has found that if he traces LOS along the hex spines, through woods and buildings, 38 hexes away, his HMG and 88 combo has seen EVERY unit you just moved (this being turn 1, they are all in march formation) and he opens up wrecking the battle before it stops, and then the guy won't rematch you! He has wupped you using the Hex Spine exploit instead of his own Spine.
Blacklisted that sucker, and warned my buds.
======================================
Didn't have those troubles when boardgames were the fashionable thing (i.e. before pcs). Of course there were plenty of fights about rules interpretations - some of them more violent than the games themselves.
It is really a shame, but thats the way it is. Pc games have loopholes and those who are less than honorable (for whatever reason) will take advantage of those loopholes even if they have no need to do so. Just gotta weed 'em out of your play list if you can.
It is really a shame, but thats the way it is. Pc games have loopholes and those who are less than honorable (for whatever reason) will take advantage of those loopholes even if they have no need to do so. Just gotta weed 'em out of your play list if you can.
Quote from Snigbert -
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
This debate is following the same track as those on the Sword Dojo and NWC Forum.
The bottom line is that whether we like it or not UV is a game and there are people out there who take great pride in learning every weakness and every little trick, tweak and hack that will give them the edge in winning it. They take great pride in their knowledge and the feeling of superiority it gives them over those who are not 'in the know'.
They don't feel ashamed that these methods are unrealistic or that in our eyes they are cheats. They consider those who don't know them to be stupid and ignorant and they take great pride in rubbing our noses in that ignorance whenever they get the chance.
Its no good appealing to their better nature, or trying to discredit their victories because they are not using the same measures of success as we are. They get their kicks out of humiliating their opponents it doesn't matter if they finish the game or not, demoralisng an opponent until they abandon the game is just as good as a victory to them, irritating an opponent until they lose their temper and start ranting at them is a source of great amusement. And the ultimate accolade is to actually be named on a name and shame thread.
These are people who will quite happily charge an infantry square with a supply wagon at Waterloo, edit the morale factors so their Warrior Monks always fight to the last man and load and unload their transports repeatedly to avoid the loading delay.
The only way to combat them is either to make the game tamper proof or hand the operational aspects over to an independant moderator.
It's why I rarely bother playing PBEM games.
The bottom line is that whether we like it or not UV is a game and there are people out there who take great pride in learning every weakness and every little trick, tweak and hack that will give them the edge in winning it. They take great pride in their knowledge and the feeling of superiority it gives them over those who are not 'in the know'.
They don't feel ashamed that these methods are unrealistic or that in our eyes they are cheats. They consider those who don't know them to be stupid and ignorant and they take great pride in rubbing our noses in that ignorance whenever they get the chance.
Its no good appealing to their better nature, or trying to discredit their victories because they are not using the same measures of success as we are. They get their kicks out of humiliating their opponents it doesn't matter if they finish the game or not, demoralisng an opponent until they abandon the game is just as good as a victory to them, irritating an opponent until they lose their temper and start ranting at them is a source of great amusement. And the ultimate accolade is to actually be named on a name and shame thread.
These are people who will quite happily charge an infantry square with a supply wagon at Waterloo, edit the morale factors so their Warrior Monks always fight to the last man and load and unload their transports repeatedly to avoid the loading delay.
The only way to combat them is either to make the game tamper proof or hand the operational aspects over to an independant moderator.
It's why I rarely bother playing PBEM games.
Didz
Fortis balore et armis
Fortis balore et armis
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Admiral DadMan
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bradfordkay
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I'll never forget a game of Jutland I played against a childhood friend when I was 13. Remember that game? You played it on the floor with movement and range rulers to control the ships. My opponent was the son of my dad's friend (they were members of, and both us youngun's eventually became members of, a US Civil War rifle team). He wanted to include his German commerce raiding merchant cruisers in the battle. Knowing how those could never stand up to real combat, I assented but failed to inspect the counters before the game. Imagine my surprise when one of his merchant cruisers had a stronger broadside the HMS Agincourt!!! Yes, that was the mother of all wargame rules arguments...
fair winds,
Brad
Brad
I have fond memories of playing that game with my childhood buddy on the livingroom floor. Cant say my mother cared much for it though.Originally posted by bradfordkay
I'll never forget a game of Jutland I played against a childhood friend when I was 13. Remember that game? You played it on the floor with movement and range rulers to control the ships. My opponent was the son of my dad's friend (they were members of, and both us youngun's eventually became members of, a US Civil War rifle team). He wanted to include his German commerce raiding merchant cruisers in the battle. Knowing how those could never stand up to real combat, I assented but failed to inspect the counters before the game. Imagine my surprise when one of his merchant cruisers had a stronger broadside the HMS Agincourt!!! Yes, that was the mother of all wargame rules arguments...
They go on in life to head up big corporations like ENRON.Originally posted by RayM
It makes you wonder(worry?) that if they act this way for "a game/sim" how do they act/interact in real life? Scary.
Quote from Snigbert -
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."
"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
Jutland
I could never find an opponent. It was a great game.
JFD's first effort
JFD's first effort
“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Voltaire
'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'
French Priest
"Statistic
Re: Jutland
I had an opponent once for Jutland. He played the Germans and during the search phase, kept going in circles in his protective mine field. Never played again, but still have the game, though a bit mildewed, in my closet, along with Midway, Luftwaffe and a few others.Originally posted by Chiteng
I could never find an opponent. It was a great game.
JFD's first effort
Played Luftwaffe a few times with the same friend until a rules arguement over who choses losses - I was right, he was wrong, never played again.
Oh well! With a descent computer AI, who needs a cheating opponent anyway?
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Wilhammer
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Midway
First naval game. Loved playing it until...
A gamer realized that no rules were written for one way missions, so on turn ONE, the IJN was hit by everything the Americans had in air assets, and the IJN lost in ship losses, never hit the Americans, and every American pilot was dead as he ran out of gas.
Based on VP, he won by s huge margin.
In real life, the Admiral would of been shot, but before that, no one would of followed such an insane order.
But no rules against it, so anything goes to him.
Grrrr!
Later got into Flattop, first with the Battleline version. First words always out of my mouth before each match was "no suicide missions".
A gamer realized that no rules were written for one way missions, so on turn ONE, the IJN was hit by everything the Americans had in air assets, and the IJN lost in ship losses, never hit the Americans, and every American pilot was dead as he ran out of gas.
Based on VP, he won by s huge margin.
In real life, the Admiral would of been shot, but before that, no one would of followed such an insane order.
But no rules against it, so anything goes to him.
Grrrr!
Later got into Flattop, first with the Battleline version. First words always out of my mouth before each match was "no suicide missions".
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bradfordkay
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Flattop was my favorite game on this subject until UV came along. One of my favorite memories is of using a storm front to hide my Japanese carriers as I swung around behind the Santa Cruz archipelago to surprise my opponent.
On another occaision I cringed as the American commander to see a Jap strike group sink one and heavily damage another of my carriers while still well out of range of my a/c. Unfortunately for him, he had miscalculated the range and dropped ALL of his a/c into the drink. You see, sometimes the suicide attack doesn't win the game. He lost on points... my damaged TF was unable to catch his fleeing carriers.
On another occaision I cringed as the American commander to see a Jap strike group sink one and heavily damage another of my carriers while still well out of range of my a/c. Unfortunately for him, he had miscalculated the range and dropped ALL of his a/c into the drink. You see, sometimes the suicide attack doesn't win the game. He lost on points... my damaged TF was unable to catch his fleeing carriers.
fair winds,
Brad
Brad