Simple Fix for German Raiding

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
At the very least 1.05 should give them the chance to do something in 1942.

Heh, but when "doing something" amounts to sticking your head in a guillitine, sometimes its better to do nothing!

[karonagames]

Heh, but when "doing something" amounts to sticking your head in a guillitine, sometimes its better to do nothing!

Yes, a tricky balance, but I think some effort to gain the initiative, even for a limited time needs to be made to throw the SU off its timetable for getting to Berlin. Just letting them build what they want when they want it is definitely the recipe for a big loss - forcing them to spend APs replacing units and organising counter attacks could/should throw off the timetable.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

76mm, it's all going to depend on how the Soviet positions his reserves. You can even deliberately thin out the south to encourage an Axis advance there.

The reserves can also act as diggers in conjunction with fortified regions to lay down some kind of fallback line. This indeed is the only way to get any kind of digging done during the poor weather, the old business of just plopping down brigades everywhere doesn't work that great now, you have use considerable forces to get any traction. Mud in particular is bad for digging.

In my current Axis GC against Cannonfodder (started under 1.04), I think he's found an ideal stratagem that I think is actually exploitive, but it goes like this:

Create a proverbial a$$-load of sappers and railroad construction SUs in every army HQ you have. Combine that with civilian digging, and any front with 5 hexes of the big spots (Leningrad, D-town, etc.), and you can have level 2 forts going up everywhere every turn that convert instantly to level 3 as soon as the Germans show up.

I'm so convinced that this can be majorly exploited by the Soviet (create a ton of them, disband them if you find you have too many) player that I think it's the next big strategy for the SU. Maybe the AP dance will prevent it from getting too big, since you'll need them for forts.

But given sufficient SUs, a division can build a level 2 fort quickly (Cannonfodder stacks 2 Divs per hex in rear areas making it that much faster), and as soon as an enemy gets adjacent, it can be converted between end-german and start-soviet turn that it will be level 3, without ever having created a Fortified Zone.

Since nothing has changed with the German supply range situation, the second half of the 1941 blitzkrieg can see the Soviets in more or less the same situation as under 1.04 (or so I predict), with level 3 forts going up as soon as the German moves adjacent (rather than before hand as was the case in the past).

[Flaviusx]

Manpower is sufficiently tight now in 1942 that it's very dubious if you should continue making hordes of RR brigades. You should be done with this sort of thing in 1941 (when manpower is plentiful and armaments dear.)

However, it's a good idea to make a lot of sapper regiments. These will eventually find their way into corps attachments anyways.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
In my current Axis GC against Cannonfodder (started under 1.04), I think he's found an ideal stratagem...

That has always been a powerful Soviet strategy. However, it heavily relies on an abundance of APs. Given that, with 1.05.xx, the AP farming of Soviet Mech forces is no more, pursuing this strategy is much less effective. Namely, without the 200-300 farmed APs that the Soviets could get in the first dozen turns, their AP pool is much more stretched and needed for the other important things that need to be done in 1941 - namely, the reorg of C&C, leader changes, building other SUs, and the occasional FR in the vital chokepoints.

Finally, you do somewhat exaggerate how "instantly" the fort levels rise. Getting to level 1 is still fairly trivial. Level 2 is reasonable, but Level 3 is very unlikely to happen in one turn, directly from level 2. It's going to take a couple of turns to get that level after you're adjacent to the enemy. Those turns are the ones that should see you striking the fortified units before they level up to 3, or deciding on an alternate bypass plan, if you don't intend on powering through.

[Flaviusx]

Yes, the AP situation is very tight now.

But I still make it a priority to get a couple of RR brigades into every army and front in 41. This is actually the only SU worth building until the rasputitsa.

It doesn't take that long to accomplish this, James, if you're disciplined about AP expenditures. I've got all my armies and fronts decked out already in our game, and even a few RR brigades to spare in STAVKA. It's about a 100 AP investment at this point in our game. Not trivial, but doable.

The annoying thing is all the spare sapper regiments and battalions floating around in out of the way locations. Going to be a while before these can be sent where they are needed.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Yes, the AP situation is very tight now.

But I still make it a priority to get a couple of RR brigades into every army and front in 41. This is actually the only SU worth building until the rasputitsa.

It doesn't take that long to accomplish this, James, if you're disciplined about AP expenditures. I've got all my armies and fronts decked out already in our game, and even a few RR brigades to spare in STAVKA. It's about a 100 AP investment at this point in our game. Not trivial, but doable.

The annoying thing is all the spare sapper regiments and battalions floating around in out of the way locations. Going to be a while before these can be sent where they are needed.

The point for me about this aspect of the game is that the SU has super-powers over his historical counterpart in that he can create as many of these SUs as are necessary. I'm happy that there are strategic tradeoffs now (AP expenditure and an armament constraint to some extent now), but this aspect of gameplay will always and forever work against the Axis without anything similar constraining the Soviet.

Imagine a 1941 Soviet army constrained to the number and arrival time of construction and sapper assets that were in its historical OOB... Why is that Germany is constrained thusly, but the SU is not, particularly when it is the Soviet who has the inexhaustible manpower advantage?

[Klydon]

Even if level 3 forts are somewhat common, it is a far cry of the solid walls of level 4 forts that players would face in 1.04.

As mentioned, I think the AP situation for the Russians got a lot tighter now since the Russians can not farm the mech units for extra APs, but they now also have more demands placed on the AP pool with the fortification units.

[heliodorus04]

Also, I think my current comments should be read in light of the fact that I've reached a wall of level 3 forts everywhere against Cannonfodder, and I hate level 3 forts. But the game was begun under 1.04...

I tend to forget that the smart German player (not sure I qualify as one) has a lot of advantages of speed, recon, and enough understanding of the logistics model to be far more efficient than his historical counterpart.

One of the reasons forts are so important is because the Germans are so fast, and one of the reasons the Germans are so fast is that the Soviet is so easily beatable everywhere in 1941 (with the exception of the South, thus the need for Lvov Pocket for German side) until blizzard.  One of least fun aspects of playing Soviet when I do is that I know there's nothing I can really do to blunt a German thrust except at the Gates of (insert urban area name here).  Without any meaningful attack tools, one is forced to become insanely good at defending.

[Flaviusx]

You're not going to get a really good feel for the fort game if you switched horses midstream.

[BletchleyGeek]

I've deliberately skipped most of this discussion since I'm devoting 90% of my headspace in my spare time to the game with Q-Ball.

I made a not very coherent post in the War Room thread that spawned this controversy, but the main ideas I exposed there I think are still valid.

I sincerely do not see as "ahistorical" as in "Hearts of Iron"-like (sorry at the jab Helio, I couldn't help it), but as unrealistic by several reasons.

First, some people on these forums have been discussion for almost a year now that the Soviet isn't constrained in any way as the historical Soviets since they don't have anything like Stalin poring over their shoulder at every operation and getting things his way since if not, you'll end up having to deal with the comforts of NKVD prison system.

The Germans aren't either: there's no bohemian corporal getting things his way and overruling professional officers setting unrealistic goals in either the offense or the defense. This is huge for the Axis play from 1942 onwards. Why it isn't much of an issue before 1942? Basically because of the absolute and total superiority of the Wehrmacht. The Red Army is out the Wehrmacht league, and it shows since the Wehrmacht can do whatever they want to do, with the exception of destroying the Red Army (that needs some cooperation on behalf the Soviet player). But, even if there was some corporal interferring, I think, such corporal would be literally hooting over and encouraging such maneuvers and showering Pelton with Feldmarshall appointments, subsidies, properties in Bavaria and what not. However I do see quite a few historical constraints on the Axis "raiding" Pelton so superbly is executing (but not limited to Pelton, MichaelT also, and I personally think, more wisely). But could really the Wehrmacht do whatever they wished?

It was raised the comparison with Rommel campaigns over North Arfica in 1941 and 1942. That's actually a good point and has a lot of merit. Optimizing logistics should be something definitely in a game that tries to portray Operational warfare realistically as WitE aims at. But let's look a bit better at this example.

One, Rommel's "railhead" was in Southern Italy. From there a massive amount of aeronaval Italian and German resources were spent in getting through enough supplies, petrol, replacement parts, etc. across the Med. That "bridge" didn't operate at peak efficiency, due to the extremely spirited interdiction operations by the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, with the exception of that sweet spot at the beginning of 1942. The result was that Rommel could launch one of his "leaps" or in WitE terms, "HQ buildups chaining", basically destroying Commonwealth forces in Gazala - which weren't too shabby btw - and put himself in a ragged but still capable shape on top of the Alam Halfa ridge. His supply line was that now infamous road that went for thousands of miles up to Tripoli and Tunis. Just one road. No railroads. All of this happening while people at OKH shaked their heads in disbelief and the cronies at OKW didn't have the balls or political ability to get the commander on the field to get real.

He stopped at Alam Halfa and then, a pretty ragged force superbly led by Auchinleck, completely defeated Rommel last ditch offensive attempt. I say last ditch because as this drama was going on western Egypt, the RN and RAF managed to get on top of the Italian and German forces in the Med. What already was precarious, went down to a trickle. The results were apparent, and an average commander assembled a massive force and nearly failed, but the absolutely crippled Axis logistics saved the day.

AGS in Southern Russia not only is not so limited in possibility:

1) the distances involved are much shorter to those of North Africa
2) the communications network while poor was nowhere as poor as in North Africa
3) there was no need of naval operations
4) there was no powerful interdicting the supply line

so, why didn't AGS do what Pelton is doing?

Because the OKH - Halder - would have just gone nuts, not because him being an envious prick, which he was, but because that would have meant starving AGN and AGC, compromising all other German strategic goals. Something which is not happening, in WitE. How much fuel would have needed the almost endless trail of trucks - horses are out of the question, unless they were of the flying kind - to get at 200% supply and fuel level the spearheads 1,000 kms away from the start line? How many trucks would breakdown in the process? The question are how long would the German logistics be able to endure the strain?

Now, the global ill-effects of HQ build up are described to "reduce overall force supply capacity a 4% to 5% for a couple months". I think such a downside to the kind of intensive, massive - we're talking here about 9-12 motorized divisions - logistic effort is way too mild and it gets more massive as the distance from the railhead increases. Is this "supply network damage" cumulative? Or is it capped? How it is measured?

What effects would such build up have in the short term for the forces out of the HQs which are getting earmarked? I think that a severe shortage in fuel - and hence mobility -, supplies and replacements. Those are acute, short-term effects which do not seem to happen or if they happen are very mild.

That current HQ build up mechanics need tweaking should be obvious, even before this long tirade. Just translate this "HQ build up chaining" to the Western Front, and replace AGS by the 21st Army Group. "Home by Christmas" would become a reality very easily.

Why the Germans aren't guaranteed anything like "Home by Christmas" in 1941? Because of the First Winter, which will place a stranglehold - much like the one the RN and the RAF put on Afrika Korps - on Axis logistics, which in December is very acute. So in a way, First Winter Axis supply rules sort of "balance" out this thing with chaining HQ buildups. The damage done to the supply network will be complemented by the damage done by Blizzard. The problem is that there might well be no Red Army left to seize the opportunity.

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Soviet players should start with this thought:
Under 1.04, the Soviet Army started to stabilize when Spring 42 Mud returned. That's when the winter offensives are over and players would rebuild units and defensive lines. 

Under 1.05, the Soviet Army will not be stable in Spring 42. Adjust accordingly. It will still be vulnerable to maneuver warfare (this is good for the game).

For the Germans, the game still has the problem that 76mm believes will see the German behave a-historically.  The reason the Germans don't drive on Stalingrad is that there is no incentive for the German to hold land, ever! You can't capture resources for strategic use, so there's no point, after Turn 17, of trying to grab land (unless the Soviet player baits you by leaving factories where they can be destroyed). In fact, WitE players know full well that Hitler's strategic imperative for 1942, deprive resources to the USSR and obtain them for the Reich, is impossible. So strategically, the Germans will never try to achieve in 1942 the objectives that OKH set for 1942 in Russia. Just as the Soviet player knows that Stavka's historic goals (break the German army in the frontier) for 1941 are impossible.

This is an excellent point. ( I am currently playing my brother under 1.04.40 patch and we felt it would not be beneficial to switch horses mid race so to speak.)

The German player needs that push , to encourage him/her to hunt down resources and have the ability to use them for their own production system, something that is sadly lacking in the game. To encourage the German player to formulate an equivalent 'Plan Blue' in scope and size can only be benefical to the way the game plays out, and its just not enough encouragement to deny these resources to the Soviet ( although its important in the way I play the game).
I remember a previous thread where this was brought up, and the prevailing view was that it would take the Germans too much time to get the facilities up and running. This is in part true but is being a bit dismissive of German ingenuity and down right desperation to accumulate more for the War effort, especially after Goebbels 'Total War' speech in 1942.

I feel there needs to be a sliding scale to bring (some of) these resources on line perhaps?

[Peltonx]

AGS is not far from railheads at all.

I just blow a huge hole in the lines vs TVD and Flaviusx, because

1. I had the hole army withen HQ build up range. Did 1 the turn before thrust and did one after thrust. Its very important to make sure you have the brakethrough corps withen hq build up after moves, that way you can follow up on breakthrough. Normal stuff all of guys do.
2. Both are railing out production way to soon and are not getting something other then junk units to front lines and not many of them.
3. Running for 4 turns and letting my infantry advance so quickly.

Players like Kamil new HQ rules and Hoooper under the OLD HQ rules were able to keep me under control in the South because of smart tactics. Russian players are just simply giving up to much ground to fast in south and making it easy for anyone to blow holes in there lines in the south.

The raiding by single units can be fixed very easyly with not letting units switch after moves are done. Most of what I do in south is nothing amazing or exploiting anything. I just plan ahead, other guys do same thing.

Nerfing something that poeple have proven can be stopped aka Hoooper/Kamil is really just babysitting all the other poeple that are making basic mistakes that can be avoided.

Pelton

[Flaviusx]

I cut off that penetration, btw. Half your armor in the south is now isolated. And what's this stuff about running in the south? I am not.

I'm preemptively denying you raiding targets. I believe this is absolutely the right way to deal with the raids and will continue to do so.

[Peltonx]

Good move on your pary for sure. Ok delaying heheh. The old we are repositioning our lines, we are not running.

Just reading around the threads ect.

Getting tired of whinning.

Basicly it appears to me like this:

Whenever a German player makes a mistake and the Russian player makes him pay its called great game play.
Whenever a Russian player makes a mistake and the German player makes him pay its called exploiting and the rules must be changed to help the russian player for his poor tactics.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

I have said your game play and tactic are near perfect.

Very fun game so far for sure. I know you love to counter attack so I try to make my thrusts extra wide and with reserves to reopen cut off units. I am finally acroos the rivers. Not much production left to bag, but atleast I am in open terrain finally.

Pelton

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Whenever a German player makes a mistake and the Russian player makes him pay its called great game play.
Whenever a Russian player makes a mistake and the German player makes him pay its called exploiting and the rules must be changed to help the russian player for his poor tactics.

I don't think you (or others) are "exploiting", very much like those setting 4 hexes deep level 3 forts weren't "exploiting" either. The definition of "exploit" is not in the dictionary but it has more to do with "discovering a bug in a game, keeping it hush and using to one's advantage", rather than "using game mechanics so they show their inherent limitations".

This is not about "nerfing" Pelton. This is about getting the game to come to grips with realistic constraints (see my analogy with Rommel's campaigns and their logistics, and the logistics of your pushes). There's nothing bad about you or anybody "going Rommel". But the game should make you or those others face the same harsh realities Rommel had.

I am also a bit troubled about you being tired of whining... well, I guess that your campaign against the 1:1 -> 2:1 rule left you exhausted [;)]

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: Pelton


Whenever a German player makes a mistake and the Russian player makes him pay its called great game play.
Whenever a Russian player makes a mistake and the German player makes him pay its called exploiting and the rules must be changed to help the russian player for his poor tactics.

Pelton

Good point!

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL:DicedT

There is a serious problem with the HQ buildup/Soviet factory evacuation dynamic. As it stands, the Germans only need to move a single panzer regiment next to Kharkov or Stalino to pin down 50 factories. They don't need to take the city. Just stay adjacent for a turn until reinforcements arrive. So the Germans have every incentive to buildup and send the tanks out on totally ahistorical factory-hunting expeditions.

So here is a simple solution. Allow Soviet factories to be evacuated even if German units are adjacent to the city. If the Germans want the factories, they will have to cut the rail lines. They can do this, especially with HQ buildup. But they will have to work a little harder than sending a lone panzer division on a raid. For the Soviets, this would lead to more realistic play. They would have an incentive to fight to keep factory cities from being encircled as long as possible.

If you are allowing the German player to get away with this, you need to re-evaluate your strategy and not retreat so much. Your solution is not needed in my opinion.

My brother would crucify me if I tried Panzer Raiding[X(]
My Panzer Divisions/Regiments would be turned to scrap iron in very short order, using these sort of tactics.

He would'nt even allow that situation to occur.....I have to fight for every inch of territory to get close to those blasted factories., leading to a far more historical and satisfying game.

[DTomato]

Correction, Pelton. When the Germans bang their head against row after row of Level 4 Soviet forts, that's called an exploit.

When the Soviets bang their heads against row after row of German regiments in Level 4 forts, that's called realism.