East Front Game

[Alpha_one]

Much looking forward to the Eastern Front.

I gather that it's a PITA from a coding aspect, but it would be great if motorized infantry could dismount so they could traverse wooded terrrain etc. I often find myself wishing that I had plain old infantry rather than my uber-mechanized panergrenadiers.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
I have no doubt that German forces such as the 11th Pz Div conducted ops like he described ( move at night, attack at dawn, rest in the afternoon ). I'm fine with that. But what I question is for how long such forces can maintain that tempo.

That's certainly what makes or breaks a wargame at the operational level about the Eastern Front. Taking German memoryists apologetic works at face value, without leveraging them with actual OKH and STAVKA reports and sources, is a risky proposition at best.

[T-28A]

As appropriate as the Chir river battles sound Its going to create/force a very fluid OOB model if done historically.

Of this you could definitely be sure, our historical research is sort of exclusive, and is based almost purely on archival data both for Axis and Soviets, and the amount of research already put into the title is probably unprecedented for an East Front wargame [:'(] But of course, making scenarios historically accurate is one thing, and making them fun to play is another one.
And, answering another post - yes, there will be Italians as well [:)]

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: T-28A

As appropriate as the Chir river battles sound Its going to create/force a very fluid OOB model if done historically.

Of this you could definitely be sure, our historical research is sort of exclusive, and is based almost purely on archival data both for Axis and Soviets, and the amount of research already put into the title is probably unprecedented for an East Front wargame [:'(] But of course, making scenarios historically accurate is one thing, and making them fun to play is another one.
And, answering another post - yes, there will be Italians as well [:)]

Are you involved in this? Wow [:)]

[T-28A]

Ah, this story is actually very old. Simply put, the HttR (CotA, BftF) game engine is perhaps the closest to the "Ideal Wargame" of mine, so who could resist such a temptation? [:D]
Adding few details to the aforementioned scope of the EF game - it will concentrate with actions from December 1942 to Februrary 1943. It will not be limited to Chir battles alone, but rather guide you from the final stages of Operation Uranus, then through the Little Saturn, and then through the southern part of Operation Gallop.
As the Soviet player you'll start up with the 5th Tank Army, and follow on with 1st Guards Army and then with 3rd Guards Army. As the German player you will start with 48th Panzer Corps, later joined with Armeeabteilung Fretter-Pico and Armeeabteilung Hollidt.
There will be no sound names like Stalingrad or Kharkov (as they worth separate titles), but you'll still find plenty of dramatic episodes. As Blues you could try to defend the besieged town for many days against Soviet attacks from all directions, or scramble to repulse Soviet tank corps ravaging your rears. Or, as Reds, you can try to outmaneuver the Mellentin himself at State Farm 79, or lead your cavalry corps alone into the deep audacious raid, terrifying German logistics and playing cat-and-mouse against two Panzer divisions.
What I especially like about our current scenario setup, is that, despite the giant scope of hundreds of kilometers, it still allows you to see the connection between events, and follow the storyline of Soviet winter counteroffensive. It is not exactly the linked campaign, as you will not follow any single formation through scenarios. But, whatever side you play, playing through scenarios you will regularly meet your old friends - and old foes too [;)]

[Trigger Happy]

"The fighting on the Chir river was made easier by the methods adopted by the command of the Russian Fifth Tank Army. They sent their various corps into battle without co-ordinating the timing of their attacks, and without the co-ordination of the numerous infantry divisions. Thus 11 Panzer Division was enabled to smash one corps after the other, until the hitting power of the Fifth Tank Army had been weakened to such an extent that it was possible for the Division to withdraw and start the game all over again with another Russian Tank Army."

That's exactely what you'll be able to judge for yourself when the game is delivered. The Germans were not just defending against countless Soviet assaults. They didn't achieve their goals. And they suffered very heavy casualties.

11th Panzer division didn't suffer much on december 8th proper, but all the other German formations had already and were still taking them to give the panzer division the freedom to move. And when they did take their place in the frontline, they suffered just like the others.

What I want to say is basically that the battles on the Chir river were not as lopsided as we were led to believe and involved a lot of close and desperate tactical encounters which often ended up with no clear winners. And while it's gonna be hard to do as well as 11 panzer division on 8.12.42, it wasn't necessarily the best way of using it to achieve 48th panzer corps goals. I think the game will help you answer that.

[wodin]

T-28A you tease,you cad,you...please stop. No ac5tually carry on, more info, more info!

As for the relief of Stalingrad I'm sure User made scanrios will cover it aswell as I expect some city action. Though how this will play out will be a massive test of the system. Not sure if it can do static orow moving city action. It's on area of the game I believe is beyond it's reach unfortunately. I think thats still the preserve of turn based games.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: T-28A

Ah, this story is actually very old. Simply put, the HttR (CotA, BftF) game engine is perhaps the closest to the "Ideal Wargame" of mine, so who could resist such a temptation? [:D]

Yes, I can indeed understand that [;)]

ORIGINAL: T-28A
Adding few details to the aforementioned scope of the EF game - it will concentrate with actions from December 1942 to Februrary 1943. It will not be limited to Chir battles alone, but rather guide you from the final stages of Operation Uranus, then through the Little Saturn, and then through the southern part of Operation Gallop.

As the Soviet player you'll start up with the 5th Tank Army, and follow on with 1st Guards Army and then with 3rd Guards Army. As the German player you will start with 48th Panzer Corps, later joined with Armeeabteilung Fretter-Pico and Armeeabteilung Hollidt.

There will be no sound names like Stalingrad or Kharkov (as they worth separate titles), but you'll still find plenty of dramatic episodes. As Blues you could try to defend the besieged town for many days against Soviet attacks from all directions, or scramble to repulse Soviet tank corps ravaging your rears. Or, as Reds, you can try to outmaneuver the Mellentin himself at State Farm 79, or lead your cavalry corps alone into the deep audacious raid, terrifying German logistics and playing cat-and-mouse against two Panzer divisions.

What I especially like about our current scenario setup, is that, despite the giant scope of hundreds of kilometers, it still allows you to see the connection between events, and follow the storyline of Soviet winter counteroffensive. It is not exactly the linked campaign, as you will not follow any single formation through scenarios. But, whatever side you play, playing through scenarios you will regularly meet your old friends - and old foes too [;)]

Awesome setup. It's indeed one of the most fluid episodes of the war. It also avoids to have to deal with extensive field fortifications, something that would probably delay considerably development. Thank you for the info and the comments T-28A, and be wary of mechanical problems [;)]

@TriggerHappy: understanding/studying this episodes is indeed very interesting and something that on this engine will also be enjoyable. The last part is harder to get with Panzer Campaigns, since you might well end up with carpial tunnel syndrome :S

[Lützow]

As much as I welcome another East Front title, the chosen time frame and location isn't the most favorable from a German Perspective. In regard of early 1943 I would rather like the 3rd battle of Charkov, and aside of that I had prefer something like Hungary 45 or Halbe pocket.

Having said that, I got two requests for your upcoming title. First, make it bigger in a way that the amount of disposable units is just restricted from the users system. A modern i7 can handle quite more stuff than a P4 was able to, when Panter released HttR years ago. You know, some of us are still waiting for the premised Road to Moscow. [:)]

Second, make it mod-friendly, so dedicated players can design additional East Front Scenarios, even outside the given time frame and area. In an ideal manner, the next Panther title would become a scalable Barbarossa Engine, kinda like TOAW.

[SeinfeldRules]

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Second, make it mod-friendly, so dedicated players can design additional East Front Scenarios, even outside the given time frame and area. In an ideal manner, the next Panther title would become a scalable Barbarossa Engine, kinda like TOAW.

With the Estab Editor this is pretty much possible with the current engine. I can't imagine this will change much for the next release?

[Arjuna]

Lützow,

We have already given users the ability to recreate any battle anywhere. There is a full Estab Editor provided, so you can create your own force structures from any time period and the Map Maker allows you to create your own maps.

As to the time period, well we chose this because we wanted a series of fluid battles where the odds were fairly even. There is plenty of opportunity for both sides to attack and a large canvas for operational manouvre.

[Arimus]

Are there any plans to include obstacles in the game?

I don't believe the current "call for fire" mechanics will work for the Eastern front. The Russians relied heavily on preplanned fires which are currently not modeled. Actually, the current mechanics could probably use a dose of realism in general. They are too consistently responsive and accurate.

Will there be any changes to the enemy AI? Maybe the ability to withdraw a battlegroup when the fight is going against it?

[ComradeP]

Any news on this? The title doesn't appear on the Matrix Games "coming soon" list. I guess the COTA conversion and other projects took/take a lot of time.

[Phoenix100]

Wow, Comrade P - that's optimistic. I was thinking maybe december 2013......

[ComradeP]

Well, on page 1 of this thread there's talk of it possibly being released in the first half of 2012 (not literally in those words, but as in: first half of next year, typed in 2011).

I'm just curious, because it seems to have dropped off the radar (there's also no sticky for this game in this forum section as far as I can determine, which is also a bit odd considering that this is basically a game announcement thread).

[Phoenix100]

Wow, again. Did they really say that - first half of this year. Hope springs eternal. I'd like to know the SP too ComP. What's the latest ETA, Dave?

[wodin]

Never ever go by any date thats mentioned by Panther. Dave is a perfectionist. Which means his games spend along time in development and bug hunting. I think the Bulge game was expected for a good year and a half before it arrived.

Also defense contracts get in the way I think. But hey thats where the money is a Dave has to eat..

Still I very much doubt this game will be out before next summer...Dec2013 I think at the earliest.

Oh and if you check abit further down from when Dave mentions first half of "next" year he posts this..

"Just a sobering note re the release time. First half of next year is what we are aiming for but that depends on a lot of factors like the amount of time I and Paul have available to spend on development work, the amount of new dev work, the degree of difficulty involved in that work, the impact it has on the rest of the engine etc. There is a big Defence project that is about to go into the definition stage early next year and we are hoping to be part of it. If this comes off, then this will probably impact on the release date for the East Front game. But it may not. The bottom line is that first half of next year is nothing more than a target date. It is not set in concrete. Do not go off half cocked and then be bitterly dissappointed if we can't make it. "

I think that he was being very optimistic and realised what he just said..giving out a date so early and everyone getting excited. So nipped it in the bud.

Also I'm not sure if COTA pack is holding up the EF game...as Dave will be busy doing the new features for the EF game so I imagine thats on hold until COTA pack is released..then we have to see if any defense contracts come along...

[ComradeP]

Yes, I read that, I just thought it was odd that after that nothing was posted about the Eastern Front game anymore in this thread, and that the thread wasn't stickied.

"Not the first half of 2012" also doesn't necessarily mean "second half of 2013", but it's a possibility. As stated, I'm just curious if there's any further information as this is the first Command Ops title I'm looking forward to, due to not having a particularly significant interest in the Western Front below regimental level.

[wodin]

I too am looking forward to it..however I think your best putting it to one side in your mind for now...it will get here but god knows when. This and Combat Mission East front game I'm waiting on..but I try not to think about it to much:)

[Arjuna]

Re East Front game. Pavel has been very busy with his work for the last few months and has had little if any time to devote to it. In any event he's waiting on me to code up Soviet doctrine and mounted ops. I in the meantime and am waiting on Paul to fix some serious issues which I have gone into on other threads. It's my experience that we go through periods like this where seemingly nothing happens and then when the log jam is cleared we charge on at speed. Given the complex nature of the work and the part time availability of resources it is very hard to predict when it will be ready. Will it get done? Yes it will. But as to when I am not going to predict.