Question re THREATS

[wodin]

Thanks for sharing. RIP RockinHarry's Grandad.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Yep...my grandpa was infantryman in the 96.ID before Leningrad..in 1944 I think. He was drafted as "Landesschutze" (overaged reservist), then heavily wounded by a russian mortar shell hitting a tree trunk next to him (heavy head and chest wounds), then evacuated, probably recuperating in his hometown Breslau (Wroclaw, Poland nowaday). He somehow managed to evacuate my family before the russians (my mother was a child at that time) to the west, where they were safe til the war ended. My mom also told they got evacuated in a "tank", although I think it must rather have been a halftrack. She can´t remember precisely. She must´ve been 7 or 8 at that time.

My grandpa also received the iron cross second grade for bravery in some kind of a rearguard action.

He wasn´t able to tell much more, since if he came to his wartime experiences (..mostly asked for by me), my grandma interrupted..not to tell of the darn war! Understandable. I remember him as a very good natured, kind and rather silent man. He died of cancer in the late 80ies. [:(]

I have a friend here in Canberra who can recall being evacuated from southern Poland just before the Russian's arrived. His mother was German and she feared reprisals from the Russians. She apparently walked most of the way carrying him and leading his brother across Germany and into southern France. Thee are so many amazing stories like this.

Also I know of quite a number of veterans who prefer not to talk about their experiences. My great uncle was an adjutant with one of the Australian light bomber squadrons in North Africa and then in Papua New Guinea. He was at first very reluctant to talk about it. But I was a persistent fellow back then in my late teens and finally he opened up. It's only then that you realise why they prefer not to revisit some of those episodes which were pretty traumatic. He remembered vividly the sight of dead airmen being hosed out of the back turrets of the B17's and B24s in Papua New Guinea. It was the only way they could be extracted.

I recall hearing these stories and it changed my perceptions of war. It's well to remember that grand strategic operations have very real personal consequences for the individuals involved.

[wodin]

Strange how men find it all so fascinating. I think it's primal instinct, your probably in away never more free than you are fighting a war, I think it's the anarchy and I suppose power that tempts, power of life and death maybe. Also will you cope, are you man enough sort of thing aswell. Plus comradeship, though I'm not at all jealous of the terrible side of war I'd loved to have felt that comradeship, many at the end of WW1 missed that terribly, the end was an anti climax, a fair few ended up worse of than before the war.

[GoodGuy]

Interesting stories.

My grandfather got drafted when the war started, but since he died in 1978, there are few pieces of info regarding his experiences. He used to tell my mother and her siblings a couple of stories when they were kids, it seems like it helped him to cope with the experiences, and the kids also showed some interest in how he fared during the war. I am in the process of putting a few pieces together right now, but I have no accounts covering 1939.
In 1944, he had received the Iron Cross second class, and the cert states that he was with an Engineer Bn at the time. He went to an agricultural technical school and had worked as mason (I think) before the war, so these skills were probably the determining factors when he was assigned to an engineer unit.

Whatsoever, he was deployed to Norway (not sure whether he participated in the fighting in 1940) 1940 or 1941, but since he was there for a longer time (more than 1 year), his unit must have been on construction/repair duty (infrastructures/houses), as part of the occupation force. There are pictures showing him and other comrades living in a log cabin in the woods, cooking food outside, shaving ... rather pieceful scenes. They enjoyed that time, and he kept talking about Norway enthusiastically, stating how beautiful that country was.

I know he told my mother that he fought in Russia, and looking up some of the records (of what I think may be his unit) seems to point towards a re-deployment either in late 1941 or 1942, to Leningrad.

He was wounded twice. He received one bullet wound in the knee, where he was sent back to a hospital in Germany, for several weeks. On a sidenote, my mother has a birthmark at the very same spot where the bullet entered his knee and of the very same size of his scar. The other injury occured during an incident in Russia (I think):

One of the unit's soldiers was lying (and probably calling) in the distance, on a field, and severely wounded, but that spot was in range of enemy weapons. Still, when the CO asked for volunteers to save the poor chap, my grandfather and a mate volunteered to get the wounded comrade, they grabbed a stretcher and ran to the fella's position. Once they had put him on the stretcher, and after they had raced towards German lines with the stretcher for some time already, heavy artillery fire kicked in right on the field, with shells exploding all around them, where they then -in that mess- had to drop the stretcher (and the poor chap) to try and make it back to their own positions with lightspeed. IIRC, the bombardment was so fierce, that even their first line started to dissolve or search for shelter, and my grandfather just ran and ran and ran way behind the German line, right to the field hospital, where he then passed out on the spot.

It seems like he had made that sprint with his last ounce of strength, as it turned out that a shrapnel of a shell had hit the back of his head and was stuck there. If it would have travelled a few more millimeters through the bone he would have been done for sure, according to the surgeon.

He was then sent to a hospital in Germany again. I am not sure wether the knee injury happened first or the other way around, but he was captured by American soldiers, at least, and either when he was still in hospital or right after being released.

As a POW, he was then transfered to a POW camp in France. Regarding reparations and reconstruction labor, the French and the Russians were probably the most pushy, to say the least, often employing the German POWs in mines, woods or road construction, and particularly in de-mining large areas.
In that camp, my grandfather got word that quite some of the comrades from his camp never returned from their de-mining missions. During a medical routine check the camp's doctor noticed his bulky fingers (an attribute that ran through his family), and was convinced that these were frostbites received during his deployment in Russia.
When asked, my grandfather did not object there, especially with the high fatality rate among the de-miners in mind, so he was sent to a POW camp in the United States (Michigan).

As far as I know, the majority of German POWs in Michigan used to be sent out for farm work and road construction. My grandfather sent the usual pre-printed Red Cross POW form to my grandmother, telling her that he became a POW and that he would reside in a camp at or in a Fort in Michigan. I have not figured the exact location of that Fort yet, my guess is that the Army dissolved that base/camp some time after the war.

Whatsoever, he was released early (in 1946), sent home to Germany, and 9 months after his return my mother was born. He brought oranges from Michigan, something my Aunt, who was around 5 yrs old when he got back, had never seen before, just like many Germans.
He so liked the country, that he spoke about going there some day. If my grandmother would have been more open-minded, they might have emigrated to the US. I wouldn't have been born then I guess, and Dave would have had one less critic, though [;)]

[Phoenix100]

Jonathan Littel's huge - and sometimes difficult - book, The Kindly Ones (Les Bienviellants - it's in French originally) - is a great piece of fiction about the war, IMHO, for anyone interested - great in a true sense, sometimes very harrowing to read (particularly the Babi Yar passages). It's perhaps a flawed book, since half of it is about the warped personal problems of the 'hero' (a re-run of the Greek Oresteia which doesn't quite work, to say the least - but the rest of it - an account of an SS intelligence officer and his war years, done with great historical accuracy - easily justifies the entire book) I recommend it in this diverted thread because more than anything I have ever come across (including all the stories I also dragged out of one reluctant grandparent and an uncle who saw action in WW2 and survived [there was a grandfather who died in WW1 too]), including the film footage of Auschwitz etc - more than all that, for me, certain pasages brought home some of the reality (in a way that sometimes only the actual experience itself, or good fiction could do) of what goes into mass extermination, something which - as we know - happened across all occupied countries. There is a great section on Stalingrad too. It did make me think, as I think again and again, what on earth was happening? Only seventy years ago. It's not long, but it seems completely inconceivable now, I think. How on earth did something like that happen? There are all the known reasons and reasonings, of course, but the sheer facts - the dreadful history in numbers of dead civilians that reveals both nothing and everything - are absolutely astounding when you think that this was only seventy years ago. It's still sensitive, for many, including, most probably, people who use this forum - the facts and anecdotes are for many people who were touched more directly by it, not capable of being simply bare anecdotes of war-time experience, misfortune or courage, shorn of moral charge. Stories that might just seem like neutral accounts can be anything but neutral for people who suffered loss directly. In another seventy years - when there's virtually no one left alive who lost someone in WW2 - it will be different, perhaps.

[wodin]

Funny enough Phoenix..it's in my Amazon wish list..so with your seal of approval it shall be bought as soon as funds are there.

Goodguy...excellent and interesting read.

I'd love it if all those who had relatives in either WW1 or WW2 and know something of their war experience could wirte it down for all to read. We then hear about these men who where not only related to our forum members but also have stories of the average soldier in war something that always interests me over the Generals etc.

Infact I may start a thread in the general forum.

So Rockinharry and GoodGuy and Dave and anyone else if you want to cut and paste your stories over there I'm sure alot of members would be interested.

[Phoenix100]

Wodin, it was pretty controversial - in Germany, France and Israel, though a huge bestseller. It won the highest French literary prizes, if that counts for anything. It didn't do well in the States at all. I found it very harrowing and sickening to read, and that was surely the point and achieved well. The main character is engaged in a kind of lengthy apologia for the holocaust, which, of course, doesn't come off - but you can see how it would be controversial, because he really does make it dramatically clear how ordinary poeple (of which the main character is not one, in many senses, but there are many others in the book) could be involved in mass murder. That's always a healthy point to bring home, I think (and has been done many times before, admittedly). Like I said, so many millions of people still alive who have lost loved ones to the real facts, so to produce a fiction about them which makes you sick with the reality of it.... For me it was an eye-opener. I read so much that is military memoirs - from all sides of the conflict - and you would think, from reading most of them, that there was no real horror at all. Memoirs don't set out, usually, to bring the horror home. You are right in what you say - we males (mainly, I assume) are fascinated by it, drawn to it (hence we play these games), I assume in complete ignorance of what actual warfare entails. The idealistic impulse that feeds into our fascination - because, surely, we would usually imagine ourselves, if we were to take part in anything real, as only taking part in something which was a 'just' war, is another theme of Littel's book. Because all the German protagonists, of course, think they are doing the right thing, up to a certain point, think they are involved in a 'just' struggle, even when that takes them into aggressive occupying campaigns in far-away countries. This is not very apparent from the memoirs, because, on the Axis side, they are mainly written from defeat, with shame, and history certainly is written by the victors (which doesn't mean it's false, or always false), but fiction can open up this 'eye-opening' side of it. For me, the whole question of the anti-semitism involved was also astounding. It still exists today, of course, is still dangerous, but we are, I think (most of us) so far away from the kinds of attitudes to other races that fed into that cataclysmic anti-semitism of only seventy years ago, that it seems like reading about a different planet. Yet only seventy years between us! It was just impossible for me to comprehend how anti-semitism like that could exist or be so widespread. Because it is, after all, so fundamentally irrational. Yet it was very widespread, at a low level, across the world, prior to WW2. Other forms of racism are perhaps more obvious now. But the book at least serves as a reminder that when push comes to shove, when times are tough, it doesn't take too much for these tribal instincts to triumph. Good luck with it, Wodin.

[RockinHarry]

Thanks for telling these interesting stories. We could be glad not to have experienced any such horrors as some our relatives did and rather settle playing armchair general, letting Pixeltruppen fight with friends all over the world.[:)]

Hard to get back on topic now...but...do any of you experience the "non firing" occurances as I do? So if during a period an infantry unit has 3 "firing" events logged, but the actions tab says 6-7 times "firing", but not a single round of ammo is expended, nor was there any sound heard or animation playing, so what´s going on there? [&:]

[wodin]

I will have a look at some point. I've never really analysed it to this degree before and I've owned all the series since RDOA!!

[Phoenix100]

Ditto, RH. Never looked at it in that kind of detail. You sure the ammo count doesn't get updated a little late (and they are, in fact, firing). As someone said, the absence of a visual cue wouldn't worry me, but if the ammo count doesn't move, despite other indications, that's somethign else...

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Ditto, RH. Never looked at it in that kind of detail. You sure the ammo count doesn't get updated a little late (and they are, in fact, firing). As someone said, the absence of a visual cue wouldn't worry me, but if the ammo count doesn't move, despite other indications, that's somethign else...

I´ve encountering the issue in my defense vs. AI test battles. You can do a quick test yourselves, playing germans in Tut St Vith. Put everybody on "rest", but I.Btl 27. Fus Rgt., south of Steinebruck (defend, in situ, face south, everything else leave at default). After a couple of minutes 1-2 US infantry companies approach and then keep an eye on the most forward german infantry company, most likely 2nd Cpy. Select (click) this unit and simply watch the blue firing indicator on unit icon, actions in unit info panel, log entry and ammo in E&S tab.

Oftentimes "under fire" is also not registered in log, when obviously enemy firing on the unit is taking place.

[wodin]

Pheonix, yes I read it's a dark harrowing read. However as I'm sure many are I'm fascinated with how certain people go about things and how low Humans can go not matter how nice they can be at other times.

[Perturabo]

I loved that book. A very interesting view into a mind of a Lawful Neutral intellectualist (horrible things I avoid them whenever I can) O_o .

[RockinHarry]

I dug through the list of changes for patch #2

tm.asp?m=2933031

and found the following related to observed issues:

# Stopped reporting that a unit had fired when in fact it had pulled out of the fire event without firing a round.

# Stopped reporting that a unit had been fired at if the firer had pulled out of the fire event without firing a round.

#Ensure no unit engagement indicator is animated on firer or target unit icons if no rounds fired during fire event.

Unfortunately I started playing/learning BftB with the latest release, so can´t compare how the game played in previous versions (the original demo left aside). So it looks to me, if there were above mentioned issues in previous versions, they did not get fixed (properly) in patch #2, unless they address different issues I´m not aware of. Strange, I appear to be the only one seeing the issues. [&:]

How can I test my game installment is ok, considering that something might have gone fubar since patching it up to 4.2.248?

My WinXP SP3 installed "Software" (incl. updates) says I have:

Microsoft .NET Framework 1.1
Microsoft .NET Framework 2.0 Service Pack 2
Microsoft .NET Framework 3.0 Service Pack 2
Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 Service SP1
Microsoft .NET Framework 4 Client Profile
Microsoft .NET Framework 4 Extended

Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Redistributable
Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 Redistributable - x86 9.0.21022
Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 Redistributable - x86 9.0.30729
Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 Redistributable - x86 9.0.30729.17
Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 Redistributable - x86 9.0.30729.4148
Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Redistributable - 10.0.30319

DX (from Dx Diagnostics)

DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)

[Phoenix100]

I think it's probably only you seeing these things because it's only you looking so closely, Harry. Doesn't necessarily mean your install is screwed. Did you ever get a reply from Dave about these events?

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

I think it's probably only you seeing these things because it's only you looking so closely, Harry. Doesn't necessarily mean your install is screwed. Did you ever get a reply from Dave about these events?

Not yet and I wouldn´t expect any til Dave got his deserved XMas break.[:)] No reason to waste his time, until I can´t be sure about my game (and OS components) installed and configured properly.

As said, you can make a rather quick test by playing germans in TuT Return to St. Vith and observing "fire events" for most forward german units (I Bn 27 Fusilier Regt). Set any other german units on "rest" (or other appropiate orders) to avoid distracting actions.

Beside that you can test and observe in any other scenario by taking focus on any particular unit in battle. You should notice a number of "fire events" that either do not really take place or do not coincide with log entries and ammo expenditure.

[Phoenix100]

I just ran your St. Vith tutorial experiment four times, Harry, and couldn't get the behaviour you describe. The 2-27 blue icon came up around 6.47. I got a shooting graphic also, an engaging message in the log and a depletion of MG ammo in the E&S. Same all four times, give or take a few minutes. Any other experiment I can try?

[Phoenix100]

Actually can't tell what they opened up with, MGs or rifles (same ammo). Ran it again just now and noticed (this time) a delay between the firing graphic and the update in the log and the E&S ammo count. But only about a two minute delay (game time). Is that what you mean?

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

I just ran your St. Vith tutorial experiment four times, Harry, and couldn't get the behaviour you describe. The 2-27 blue icon came up around 6.47. I got a shooting graphic also, an engaging message in the log and a depletion of MG ammo in the E&S. Same all four times, give or take a few minutes. Any other experiment I can try?

Thanks for doing some quick tests.[:)] Now that I have at least one confirmation about MY game not running properly, I came to the idea checking out something different. I configured my anti virus software (Avira Antivir, particularly the Antivir Guard module) to exclude CmdOps.exe as well as all of my BftB game folder from live overwatch. Some quick tests now revealed that the game actions appear to run more in sync and that the mentioned symptoms (non firing, no ani and sound FX, ammo expenditure desync) have at least lessened noticably. I also now see maybe double as much shooting and actions as before. Need to make more test runs to evaluate the current games functionality, in order to rule out that it´s just an unrelated hiccup. [X(]

Is there yet any known problems with software running in background (anti virus scanners ect.) causing BftB game play to show strange reactions?

I suspect other data streams to BftB getting disturbed, since it obviously requires access to .Net components and various libraries (C++ RT and DX).

IF it´s really my anti virus scanner causing the mess, then a BIG SORRY (particularly Dave) to all who wasted time trying to replicate the issues. [&o]

[Phoenix100]

Well, hope it is your virus checker and not the game! I played the experiment about ten times in all last night, and noticed quite some difference in the delays and sync between the 5 information points (firing/taking fire indicator on the counter, fire graphic, ammo state in E&S, msg in log and action description in the side bar). But the max was about three minutes game time only, with one exception. I got closest to thinking there was a problem when I got a 'firing' msg in the side bar, and no ammo depletion for around 5 mins of game time, then a single round of faust registered as shot off. I noticed this longer delay with syncing the info on Anti-armour rounds. But nothing else happened in between and the blue counter marker stayed blue, so I thought it must be some lag issue. (The round took out a sherman, I also noticed! and the unit - the same one you refer to elsewhere as running too quickly when faced with stuarts - stuck it until it had taken about 12 casualties, and been bombarded and repeatedly engaged by about 8 shermans - it took out three, as far as i could make out, expending about 8 faust rounds to do so!) I thought it must be the same thing that you observe when units suddenly rush around (more noticeable if you play at high speeds) or stop like nothing is happening, whilst (I've always assumed) the processor does the math. So maybe I'll try to disable my virus checker too!

Let us know how you get on Harry.

Be useful if someone else might quickly run the St. Vith experiment idea of yours, no? It only takes a few minutes. Any takers? Wodin?