HTTR Ex Pack

[Grim.Reaper]

ORIGINAL: benpark

Well, we all know the phrase "selling out"- it refers to someone that waters something down for the masses in order to cash in on a widened appeal. This is the way to make the volume sales argument valid. It doesn't really work in this instance.

The good folks that make this game will get my money on a higher priced game again and again for two reasons:

1. They don't skimp on realism and the true spirit of a wargame (ie. they don't sell out)

2. They have a proven track record of releasing good, well coded games- and support those titles post release in the timely-est fashion they can.

Without either of the above factors, I would be hesitant/wouldn't buy. But we all know this to be a quality, state of the art game series. Would things like a 3D map be nice? Yep, and I'll pay more when that title is offered. The map maker and estabs editor also make this a sandbox, so there is a good deal of value here.

I'm not saying that this is the method for all publishers or developers. #2 is critical- if you have no support post release for a problematic title- no more of my $$$. There are more than a few recent titles that fail at either one or both of my standards (one of which I am currently fuming about), but this series is a welcome no brainer/must buy. I appreciate that, and I think the developers appreciate the player base.

And to be clear on some of my prior posts on price, I am in no way ever implying the games developed by this company is not solid and of good quality. That is the reason I am in this forum in the first place and have purchased every single game that has been put out at the initial price (no reduced prices or sale prices), except the very first one since it was no longer around by the time I found out about these games:) Ultimately as it has been said many times, the developer/publisher will set the price and each individual will have to decide if they agree with the price enough to purchase. We can debate the economics of pricing a million times over and everyone will have a different point of view based on their financial situation and what they believe makes the most money (i.e. higher price or more quantity or somewhere in between). I gave my opinion as to what I was hoping the price would be, but does not mean I am right.

[wodin]

benpark is the tile you refer to one whose initials are TU by anychance?

I will say I don't begrudge Dave the money for a wargame of the quality he produces however I do feel that there is a limit to how much can be charged which is different to how much it's actually worth. I believe BftB is worth £80 and I believe the scenario pack content will be worth say £30. However can I actually afford £30 on what is a scenario pack of battles that have been covered in two previous purchases? Would that price stop me from buying it? Most likely, would I buy it for £20, most likely. Will I save up and buy the East Front game when it arrives for a premium price...of course I will as it's a whole new game with new features covering my favourite theatre so my favourite wargame covering my favourite theatre is for me priceless.

So as I mentioned a feel a high price for this particular scenario pack would I'm afraid be a no go for me.

Again I in no way wanted to get Dave annoyed and I do want Panther to carry on making wargames well into the future. I just can't in my present situation justify a premium price for this particular scenario pack. Though if I hadn't already purchased both RDOA and HTTR I would be willing to pay it.

I apologise to anyone if I have rubbed them up the wrong way. Wasn't intended. Though I really wouldn't like to see another backlash at Panther if this pack is released at a price that is considered high as there are a fair few out there who would be willing to complain on at least one particular forum by people who never even intended to buy it. I thought this was going to be an appeasement\PR pack in away to those who where initially wound up by the expensive of the game when first released. I expect a few have them have bought it in the sale since but releasing this pack at a price that everyone is happy with would go a long way to putting the nail in that particular coffin. You could then announce in plenty of time before release that the EF title will have a premium price and I'm sure you will have little compliants if they feel that any scenario packs in the future will be a good price. A high price core game and a fan pleasing price for Scenario packs would be a great business plan that I expect all will be more than happy with. I also believe you'd have people willing to work for nothing in making these packs for the community or if not nothing a very small fee. That way your outlay is minimal.

I do get annoyed though when I feel Matrix doesn't make you a top priority:)

Dave please don't be disheartened as you last post sounds like someone on the verge of jacking it all in. Your games are very important to many of us as they are a big part of our precious leisure time. As Phoenix says were not moaning at you but are worried that if you don't sell enough you wont make anymore! In away where trying to protect Panther Games rather than finish the company off. All of us on here are your main core fans so we have nothing to gain by pulling Panther Games down. Like I said we worry about you continuing and staying solvent and what you say in your last post in away fuels our anxiety about whether you will be able to carry on making games. So with that in mind we want you to be able to sell more and I suppose some of us feel that a high price in away is a threat to your continued success and our continued enjoyment. Listne if I won the lottery your coy is on my list.

Anyway I apologise again. Keep up the fantastic work Dave you are appreciated and I mention your games on many forums!

[benpark]

No one should feel bad about voicing an opinion that is fairly stated. Everyone wants an affordable game, without making it a complete wash for the developers.

[BigDuke66]

@phoenix
"balance the price against what they will get out of it" well that is exactly what I would do but as these "throw away prices" were mentioned I thought I would be good to show the people how expensive the game really could have been.

I mean in todays society most people don't know what things are worth and simply look to the left and right to compare prices without really comparing quality and even when they do they don't know what quality is at all, in the end they sit there with some mass produced crap that doesn't satisfy them.

[Phoenix100]

That's very true, BD66.

I myself do believe in the labour theory of value. That is, I believe that underlying the price and demand mechanism, there is a value given to commodities which arises out of the labour invested in them, and all other things being equal, more labour (measured in time) means more value. Price might or might not reflect this in the particular case, but it will reflect it generally.

But that's really like an item of faith. I'm sure it's not very rational. Nevertheless, when we say - perfectly naturally - that an item is 'worth' more than it 'costs' then we are often reflecting this out-of-date Marxist theory, I think.

We could have it worse, Dave - we could be musicians. Think of the phenomenal investment in time it takes to become an accomplished musician, in any genre - you have to learn music theory (something that expands constantly, so as to be almost infinte), learn your instrument, learn to put the two together, learn the ins and outs of a particular genre (like jazz). That's a life time's work. And the reward is usually miserable, if you can earn a living from it at all. There are a few who earn well - there are always a few - but most are scratching a living, with all those tremendous skills on board.

It would be nice to think there could remain a future for 'niche' games (and pricing yourself out of the niche won't achieve that, though I'm sure no one is about to do that). Here's hoping.

[Wiggum]

Oh, there are quiet some "niche" games on Steam & Co.
Simulators and Old-school 2D RPG's for example.
In one case the developer was charging 20$ for the game on his site and on Steam it was on sale for 5$ !
How can this work for him...at least it works in some way because hes already workin on another title.

Nobody gets born as hardcore wargamer, so Panther can not expect to have a constant number of customers forever.
What they have to do is simple, get some new customers !

And will a new customer spend 60$ for a game he is not sure if he will really enjoy...most likely no.
A idea could be to have a "light" version of the game on Steam with only a few more scenarios as the demo for a fair price like 10$.
Now that how you could get attention from a crowd that dont even knows such game exist and maybe will be able to get them to buy the "full" game too.

Panther has already done 3 things right with BftB !
1st They have a demo !
2nd They have a real editor included
3rd They have a great game

Now, get more customers.
Get more people to know and play the game
Make money and use it to deliver even better games ! [:)]

[BigDuke66]

The demo is already enough to test, at least it's better than the usual demos out there that show tits & ass but hid there ugly faces till the customer bought the game.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

The demo is already enough to test, at least it's better than the usual demos out there that show tits & ass but hid there ugly faces till the customer bought the game.

I like.[:D] Tis now my sig.

[BigDuke66]

Now I can die happy

[Major SNAFU_M]

I am of two minds about this subject.

I have only have BFTB for about 5 months, and it has already proved itself worth the money and then some.  I would willingly pay more for a product of this quality.  My time, especially my wargame time, it very precious to me and I don't like spending time on anything that isn't top-notch in terms of complexity, depth, accuracy of simulation, etc.

When I look around and see how much money people spend on things of much lower quality or cost/unit of time enjoyed, yet they baulk at a high price tag for a game of this quality it makes me quite angry.

We have seen way too many high-quality wargame houses vanish because people aren't/weren't willing to pay for quality.  The price goes up higher because this isn't a niche market.

Do I want a lower price?  No, not really.  I can afford it and I am happy to pay top dollar for a top-quality product whether it is software, clothes, etc.  Better to buy something once for 10 years of use that buy 10 things for 1 year's use each.

Also, I guess I also like the idea that a higher price also means that the only people who will purchase BFTB are people who really want it and are willing to allocate that kind of resource and make a commitment to the franchise.

I see the point about a lower price getting more customers, but it is important for a game like this to ask for what kind of custoemers?  I for one, wouldn't like to see the game changes because of request from the finger-twitcher RTS crowd.  Or a re-balancing of something because it is "too realistic."  I guess what I am saying here is that I like BFTB because it rewards the player who invests in both learning the game and in understanding the principles it is trying to simulate, not a more mass-market beer and pretzels approach and I wouldn't want this changed to gain a few more customers.

[simovitch]

Major SNAFU, thanks - that was well said. I hope whatever price the Dave and David et al. decide on will be acceptable to the greater majority.

[PirateJock]

Well, not sure there's any need to get annoyed, Dave.

You reckon?

Cheers

[jazman]

ORIGINAL: Major SNAFU

...

Do I want a lower price?  No, not really.  I can afford it and I am happy to pay top dollar for a top-quality product whether it is software, clothes, etc.  Better to buy something once for 10 years of use that buy 10 things for 1 year's use each.

Also, I guess I also like the idea that a higher price also means that the only people who will purchase BFTB are people who really want it and are willing to allocate that kind of resource and make a commitment to the franchise.

I see the point about a lower price getting more customers, but it is important for a game like this to ask for what kind of custoemers? 

...

You mean we're not shopping at Wal-Mart (Ikea) for cheap junk from China (Sweden)? You mean we ought to be willing to pay more for quality kit? What's this world coming to!

[wodin]

Not sure I understand the "I like because it means people who spend a high price like the game". In no way at all will panther deviate just to please a crowd if it isn't in keeping with their ideas. They wouldn't be swayed.

Also did I read that BftB sold about the same or abit better than CotA? As BftB should have out sold by upto 5:1 due to the theatre. So I'm afraid I have to disagree here with Dave that history has proved him right. This game on the Western Front and one of the most famous battles aswell (the most popular theatre in WW2 on the whole) should have heavily outsold a game set in Crete. Lets be conservative a say the BftB game would have outsold cotA if priced at $39.99 3:1. You'd have made an extra $39.99 on every game you sold at $80.

[Phoenix100]

I can afford it and I am happy to pay top dollar for a top-quality product whether it is software, clothes, etc. Better to buy something once for 10 years of use that buy 10 things for 1 year's use each.

Well, me too, as it happens. Lucky us. Not everyone is in that position, however.

[RayWolfe]

Give it a rest, guys. We have been round this block so many times it becomes tedious ... particularly when NO PRICE HAS BEEN QUOTED.
Now be good boys and get back into bed. [:'(]

[Major SNAFU_M]

ORIGINAL: jazman




You mean we're not shopping at Wal-Mart (Ikea) for cheap junk from China (Sweden)? You mean we ought to be willing to pay more for quality kit? What's this world coming to!

I rather think not. . It is why I will plunk down $$$ for a new Filsons Mackinaw cruizer jacket, knowing that my grandparents still wear the one's they bought when they were in their 20s. My wife wears one of them now. Thats 50+ years of wear and people compliment my wife on her jacket nearly every time she wears it. With luck this one will last me until I die and my son will get it.

Much better that the hassle and expense of buying a new one every 5 years or so. And cheaper over the long run.

[Phoenix100]

Not quite the same with computer games, though.
But I want one of those jackets...
On second thoughts - I just checked the price of it - $350! I could buy, instead, a Ralph Lauren for five times that and look forward to only three or four years wear before it dropped to pieces....

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe

Give it a rest, guys. We have been round this block so many times it becomes tedious ... particularly when NO PRICE HAS BEEN QUOTED.
Now be good boys and get back into bed. [:'(]

Night Ray;)

As I stated before these chats between us converts aren't about us per se but about Panther games and their ability to continue making games...and some of us will have issues with any perceived threat to that happening.

[Bison36]

Looking forward to the expansion Dave.

You make great games that have been worth every penny I've spent on them.