Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Moderators: ralphtricky, JAMiAM
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Can you give a copy to Larry so that he can test it under 3.5?
Thought for the day:
If you feel like doing some work, sit down and wait....... The feeling does go away.
If you feel like doing some work, sit down and wait....... The feeling does go away.
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Sure, when we are a bit closer, ill be happy to send it out.
I do belive we will se a working Fite2,
So dont worry. Ill make it happen even if i have to programe it myself
I do belive we will se a working Fite2,
So dont worry. Ill make it happen even if i have to programe it myself 
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
ORIGINAL: fogger
Can you give a copy to Larry so that he can test it under 3.5?
Those North Koreans with there silly talk.
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
yes, when its done ill send it to him. I need somone to read the briefing trough. English is not my prime language, so it would be nice to have it corrected;) Allso input on various subjects are much welcome.
Here is an exampel form the Briefing, any comments would be appriciated.
Production and replacements:
The Eastern front was a virtual meat grinder, with horrific casualties on both sides. There is no official data on how many percent that were actual rifle squads and how many were in the supporting arms services (Artillery, Armored force, supply and logistic ect), however its logical to assume that these element had fewer casualties than the front line infantry. To calculate squad replacement we have estimates form a number of sources stating that 1/3 of casualties were in these armed services, and 2/3 in the line infantry.
Trucks, either stolen, lend leased or produced 2/3 is going to the logistic support and only 1/3 for the combat troops. Same goes for Jeeps types.
Every nation has its own squads. So there will be Finish SMG squads, Italian SMG squads and so on.
Axis:
At Barbarossa 75% of the German strength was employed in the east. This is represented by the actual units on map.
Up until 1943 the German industry was not mobilized for war, there was a shortage on skilled labour that only became worse when new recruits were drawn into the armed services. It’s a paradox, that this shortage actually improved the living condition of Soviet POW from 1942, as they were badly needed as labor. German tanks and aircraft production peeked in late 44 ( Aug-sep) as Guderian and Speer were able to reform the German industry to a more coherent war time production. It was never perfect, and almost the entire war the Germans had an abundance of raw material compared that their Soviet counterpart.
The production increase can be seen from the increased numbers of new equipment. These numbers are historical.
Historical facts taken into account:
- The Germans had between 62-67% of their armed forces in the East at almost any giving time (with very few exceptions e.g the Ardennes offensive).
- The Axis forces were totally destroyed meaning that all manpower were killed or captured
To apply history we done the following:
- 2/3 of the total historical German production goes to the Eastern Front
- 100% of Axis allies goes to the Eastern Front
Total German losses to 30 April 1945 amounted to 13,488,000 men. That’s 75% of the mobilized force and 46% of the male population in 1939. Of these 10,758,000 were captured or killed in the east.
To calculate the replacements we have done the following:
- 1/3 of-the casualties were in non-squad units (Artillery, Navy, Aircraft, Panzer force ect.).
- As the entire force was eventually captured or destroyed we have subtracted the in game squad numbers, from the remaining total.
- Each squad is considered to consist of 10 men.
This results in 717.200 squads minus the fielded Army. The quads are then distributed according to the starting Matrix. (Relative percent of fielded MP/Rifle squads ect.)
Axis Allies:
The same rules as above apply to German allies:
Nation Dead/Missing POWs Totals Fielded Army To Matrix
Hungary 350.000 513.700 863.700
Rumania 480.000 201.800 681.800
Finland 84.000 2400 86.400 Not Relevant
Italy 45.000 48.975 93.975
Slovak 3.478 911 7.587 Not Relevant
Others N.A 464.147 464,147 Not Relevant
Others include, French, Czech, Belgium, Spanish, Danish, SS volunteers, Ost Legion ect. As there is no historically numbers for manpower killed or missing, the POW number represents the total loss, and the starting squads are NOT subtracted.
The number that goes to the Matrix is calculated the same way as the German. (2/3 Total number /10 (men pr. Sq) minus fielded squads)
Soviet Manpower.
Much too contrary belief, the Soviet Union did not have an endless supply of manpower. It did however from the start of the war posses a vast pool, of semi trained men that could be mobilized for action. In 1938 the basic military service was introduced again, for every man from age 18-50. This gave a total of 14 million men with at least basic training when the war started. This vast pool was the reason that the Red Army could sustain such heavy losses, and still continue to grow. By June 30, 1941 5,5 million reservist were called up, and this was matched by 5,5 million volunteers. A grand total of 11 million men were joining the Red Army within 2 weeks of the war. These men were however not of the same standard as the personnel lost in the standing army in summer of 41. This combined with the poor quality of the commanding officers made for the continued heavy losses for the rest of 1942. By December 1941 the Soviet Union had raised 97 reserve divisions, formed 194 new divisions, and 84 brigades. The soviet armed forces reached at total of 11,5 million in 1943, with 6,5 million in front line service. These numbers remained almost constant for the remainder of the war.
The total number of Soviet losses is always going to be a guess. The documentation form soviet archive has the confirmed number of 28.199.127 military losses. It’s naturally to guess that the actually number is larger since not all enlisted men were accounted for in the desperate months of 1941
We have implemented the same calculations as with the Axis, however these are actually losses and the standing army is not subtracted.
This means the total numbers of squads to put into the matrix are: 2/3x 28.199.127 /10 (men pr squad) = 1.879.942 Squads
Withdrawing units:
These units are calculated into the all-time manpower / equipment production, and they should be disbanded before they withdraw, since the players have already “paid” for them.
Soviet wartime production.
The heavy disruption during Barbarossa means that the Soviet production first starts in December 1941. The arriving units, until then, represent the relative small production that occurred until December. Factories are to be moved as the Soviet player sees fit. It has no cost on production. However, if they are lost they will reduce the overall production. So take great care and don’t lose a single one, or it will affect your entire war production. The Soviet player can “gamble” keeping the factories in their historically location, as they are formed as supply units and will add to the recovery of adjacent units.
The starting reserve pool, reflects the official 22 june 1941 stock pile, (The equipment in depots) and the frantic manpower mobilization in the first few weeks.
Here is an exampel form the Briefing, any comments would be appriciated.
Production and replacements:
The Eastern front was a virtual meat grinder, with horrific casualties on both sides. There is no official data on how many percent that were actual rifle squads and how many were in the supporting arms services (Artillery, Armored force, supply and logistic ect), however its logical to assume that these element had fewer casualties than the front line infantry. To calculate squad replacement we have estimates form a number of sources stating that 1/3 of casualties were in these armed services, and 2/3 in the line infantry.
Trucks, either stolen, lend leased or produced 2/3 is going to the logistic support and only 1/3 for the combat troops. Same goes for Jeeps types.
Every nation has its own squads. So there will be Finish SMG squads, Italian SMG squads and so on.
Axis:
At Barbarossa 75% of the German strength was employed in the east. This is represented by the actual units on map.
Up until 1943 the German industry was not mobilized for war, there was a shortage on skilled labour that only became worse when new recruits were drawn into the armed services. It’s a paradox, that this shortage actually improved the living condition of Soviet POW from 1942, as they were badly needed as labor. German tanks and aircraft production peeked in late 44 ( Aug-sep) as Guderian and Speer were able to reform the German industry to a more coherent war time production. It was never perfect, and almost the entire war the Germans had an abundance of raw material compared that their Soviet counterpart.
The production increase can be seen from the increased numbers of new equipment. These numbers are historical.
Historical facts taken into account:
- The Germans had between 62-67% of their armed forces in the East at almost any giving time (with very few exceptions e.g the Ardennes offensive).
- The Axis forces were totally destroyed meaning that all manpower were killed or captured
To apply history we done the following:
- 2/3 of the total historical German production goes to the Eastern Front
- 100% of Axis allies goes to the Eastern Front
Total German losses to 30 April 1945 amounted to 13,488,000 men. That’s 75% of the mobilized force and 46% of the male population in 1939. Of these 10,758,000 were captured or killed in the east.
To calculate the replacements we have done the following:
- 1/3 of-the casualties were in non-squad units (Artillery, Navy, Aircraft, Panzer force ect.).
- As the entire force was eventually captured or destroyed we have subtracted the in game squad numbers, from the remaining total.
- Each squad is considered to consist of 10 men.
This results in 717.200 squads minus the fielded Army. The quads are then distributed according to the starting Matrix. (Relative percent of fielded MP/Rifle squads ect.)
Axis Allies:
The same rules as above apply to German allies:
Nation Dead/Missing POWs Totals Fielded Army To Matrix
Hungary 350.000 513.700 863.700
Rumania 480.000 201.800 681.800
Finland 84.000 2400 86.400 Not Relevant
Italy 45.000 48.975 93.975
Slovak 3.478 911 7.587 Not Relevant
Others N.A 464.147 464,147 Not Relevant
Others include, French, Czech, Belgium, Spanish, Danish, SS volunteers, Ost Legion ect. As there is no historically numbers for manpower killed or missing, the POW number represents the total loss, and the starting squads are NOT subtracted.
The number that goes to the Matrix is calculated the same way as the German. (2/3 Total number /10 (men pr. Sq) minus fielded squads)
Soviet Manpower.
Much too contrary belief, the Soviet Union did not have an endless supply of manpower. It did however from the start of the war posses a vast pool, of semi trained men that could be mobilized for action. In 1938 the basic military service was introduced again, for every man from age 18-50. This gave a total of 14 million men with at least basic training when the war started. This vast pool was the reason that the Red Army could sustain such heavy losses, and still continue to grow. By June 30, 1941 5,5 million reservist were called up, and this was matched by 5,5 million volunteers. A grand total of 11 million men were joining the Red Army within 2 weeks of the war. These men were however not of the same standard as the personnel lost in the standing army in summer of 41. This combined with the poor quality of the commanding officers made for the continued heavy losses for the rest of 1942. By December 1941 the Soviet Union had raised 97 reserve divisions, formed 194 new divisions, and 84 brigades. The soviet armed forces reached at total of 11,5 million in 1943, with 6,5 million in front line service. These numbers remained almost constant for the remainder of the war.
The total number of Soviet losses is always going to be a guess. The documentation form soviet archive has the confirmed number of 28.199.127 military losses. It’s naturally to guess that the actually number is larger since not all enlisted men were accounted for in the desperate months of 1941
We have implemented the same calculations as with the Axis, however these are actually losses and the standing army is not subtracted.
This means the total numbers of squads to put into the matrix are: 2/3x 28.199.127 /10 (men pr squad) = 1.879.942 Squads
Withdrawing units:
These units are calculated into the all-time manpower / equipment production, and they should be disbanded before they withdraw, since the players have already “paid” for them.
Soviet wartime production.
The heavy disruption during Barbarossa means that the Soviet production first starts in December 1941. The arriving units, until then, represent the relative small production that occurred until December. Factories are to be moved as the Soviet player sees fit. It has no cost on production. However, if they are lost they will reduce the overall production. So take great care and don’t lose a single one, or it will affect your entire war production. The Soviet player can “gamble” keeping the factories in their historically location, as they are formed as supply units and will add to the recovery of adjacent units.
The starting reserve pool, reflects the official 22 june 1941 stock pile, (The equipment in depots) and the frantic manpower mobilization in the first few weeks.
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
I need somone to read the briefing trough.
If you haven't already, you can try this guy :
tm.asp?m=3238944&mpage=1&key=�
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Thanks, i have send him a message;)
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
A question:
"- 100% of Axis allies goes to the Eastern Front"
100% of what? Their production?
In case of Italy I would doubt that, they had there own actions in Africa and later in Sicily & Italy.
How big will the map be and what will be covered?
"- 100% of Axis allies goes to the Eastern Front"
100% of what? Their production?
In case of Italy I would doubt that, they had there own actions in Africa and later in Sicily & Italy.
How big will the map be and what will be covered?
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
That is ofcause me being very unprecise.
It goes for the minors, I allways see Itally as a major, ill be sure to correct it in the briefing.
I got a book on Italian casualties and equipment losses. The Italians commitment in the East and its replacements will be calculated after that.
Sorry for not clarifying that
It goes for the minors, I allways see Itally as a major, ill be sure to correct it in the briefing.
I got a book on Italian casualties and equipment losses. The Italians commitment in the East and its replacements will be calculated after that.
Sorry for not clarifying that
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
and from the briefing:
About this Order of Battle (OOB)
This OOB is made for The Operational Art of War by Talonsoft/Matrix Games. We will use the latest version with unique equipment using historical data, (Caliber, rate of fire ect.) and a 6k m Hex map covering from west of Berlin to the Urals, and from Finland to Turkey.
Hope this answers your question, otherwise ill be happy to answer more specific
About this Order of Battle (OOB)
This OOB is made for The Operational Art of War by Talonsoft/Matrix Games. We will use the latest version with unique equipment using historical data, (Caliber, rate of fire ect.) and a 6k m Hex map covering from west of Berlin to the Urals, and from Finland to Turkey.
Hope this answers your question, otherwise ill be happy to answer more specific
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Matrix Great War In The East has a lot of information on how the war effort by Germany and its Allies was distributed during each year of the war. It is also a good source for
production figures, TOEs and OOBs.
production figures, TOEs and OOBs.
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Unless WitE states the source so the information can be verified I wouldn't use any info found there at all.
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
Unless WitE states the source so the information can be verified I wouldn't use any info found there at all.
WITE is an excellent game and it has been developed by a team of professionals. Sure it is good to use the source material, but while developing 'Eastern Front'
I have found WITE to be useful more than once as a check. I have rarely (if ever) found their figures completely off the mark.
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
Unless WitE states the source so the information can be verified I wouldn't use any info found there at all.
The list of sources used for scenarios, OOBs, TOEs, Equipment etc in the WitE manual is 12 pages long..
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Even more reason to be cautiousness, with so many sources there are for sure conflicting informations, it's up to the FITE team to make there own decisions about them and not simply follow the way of the WITE team, they made their decision based on there game engine, the FITE team must make their decisions based on the TOAW engine.
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Informed decisions on historical data are better than uninformed ones! I am sure the FITE developers can
take a suggestion or two from the forum and existing work and then make the best game they can based on
the TOAW engine. They may even learn a thing or two from WITE limitations/problems without wasting limited resources
repeating them...
take a suggestion or two from the forum and existing work and then make the best game they can based on
the TOAW engine. They may even learn a thing or two from WITE limitations/problems without wasting limited resources
repeating them...
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Exactly that's why they should use the sources and not simply take the info directly from WITE.ORIGINAL: governato
Informed decisions on historical data are better than uninformed ones!
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
Even more reason to be cautiousness, with so many sources there are for sure conflicting informations, it's up to the FITE team to make there own decisions about them and not simply follow the way of the WITE team, they made their decision based on there game engine, the FITE team must make their decisions based on the TOAW engine.
Sure, but contradicting sources are the norm rather than the exception. So cautionesness is your companion through the whole development circle..
Agree to the last half-sentence however.
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
Good luck getting that Soviet mess from 1941 to 1942 'right'. 
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
ORIGINAL: Telumar
ORIGINAL: docgaun
Hello everybody.
Thanks for all the tips. The Soviet oob is at 7000 units atm. The structual limitations are still quite a bitch in Toaw, but still this will be the most massive senario ever.
Scale is 6km hex, regimental size.
You're insane.. Who shall play this?
Seriously. I was hoping you would go again with the 10km scale and divisions with the Soviets. With the increased unit limit in 3.5 these still could subdivide into regiments.
To get a taste of what this would be like to play try John Tiller's Moscow 1942, Fall Kreml North Max Effort. 250 turns, thousands of units at battalion and company level. Just to fire all of the artillery takes forever. I imagine it will take as long to play a this 250 turn scenario as the entire war took. That is 1939 to 1945. [;)]
RE: Fite Upgrade in progress, Help wanted
John Tiller's Moscow 1942, Fall Kreml North
Is this a TOAW senario?
Is this a TOAW senario?
Thought for the day:
If you feel like doing some work, sit down and wait....... The feeling does go away.
If you feel like doing some work, sit down and wait....... The feeling does go away.