Enthusiastically Sailing With Jerry (Reluctant Admiral)

[John 3rd]

Ryuho I think is the next CVL.

Planning sounds good.

[ny59giants]

I place CVE Taiho (spd 21) over with my fast AOs. Train up your Vals or Kates in ASW so they can try to keep those Allied subs away. She is the slowest of the CVEs and doesn't carry any torpedoes. The extra Zeros may keep a stray PBY from getting a few torpedoes off.

[Cavalry Corp]

How do you get all search arcs o display like this????

[John 3rd]

Good Thinking Michael. I tend to use my CVEs to hunt, then they are HUNTED, and then they become artificial reefs....

[Prydwen]

Hi all,

ny59giants, that's a good use for Taiho. I have my AO's a bit dispersed moving fuel and oil at the moment. When I group them back up I'll probably do that.

Cavalry, search arcs are displayed with the "z" key. It came around in one of the updates. There's a great PDF reference file around here somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up...

John, I want to have a couple CV forces roughly equal so I can split them up and use them in two areas. I've been concentrating them because they were hitting some big bases like sweeping Palembang where he has 100+ fighters. If he had some DB's or worse some Swordfish they could've gotten through my CAP. 20 Swordfish could've ended my entire CV fleet! I've had horrible luck against them! They took Kaga out of the war for 4 months with a single torpedo hit and two hits spelled doom for Shoho.

Anyway, here is what I'm accelerating as far as CV's go. Everything that is late war is accelerated because of the "discount pricing" that I get. Hiyo is so close that I quit accelerating a few turns ago and accelerated Ryoho (you were right, John). Once those two arrive I can probably accelerate they Ryukaku and still build points. I've been running real close every turn. Oh well, that's what it's for, to build ships. In August Musashi will be completed and I should be able to accelerate Taikaku.

Joe

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: ItsAMadhouse



Thanks for the comments. The objective in China is to beat down the Chinese units and destroy his squads so he ends up weaker and weaker. (Steamrolling in other words.)

Joe

This is a great long term strategy on the Asian Mainland in my opinion.
I always try and formulate my strategy around taking the ultimate prize of Chungking, thereby so seriously weakening the Chinese position, that you have the flexibility of syphoning off units to be used in other theatres.

This then compounds the problems & stress for the Allied player.

I must admit that I am very interested in this mod, and I think I'm going to set up a seperate game/mod folder and practice my nefarious plans against the AI, before taking on a PBEM game.

[Prydwen]

Hi Empire,

I agree. It certainly can't hurt. I don't have a really long term detailed plan because the situation is, obviously, always changing. So I want to try to remain flexible. Of course it would be outstanding to take Chungking and it may even be possible. There is only 6 units there at the moment. If we break through we may make a run up that direction.

Since we're on the subject I'll post a picture of the current China situation. As usual the white or black numbers are the number of Chinese units in that particular hex. You can see the "arrows" showing the Chinese units moving West all around Changsha. He's obviously aware something is going on out that way and his units are moving to meet the new threat. I don't think he'll get them here in time. I think the tanks can get to Kweilen before he can strat move his troops in. At the rate they're going they'll arrive in hex with the units they're chasing tomorrow and shock attack the next day. I expect they'll retreat to Kweilen so I'll probably have about half or so in pursuit mode. We should be in Kweilen in three days. That'll stop strat moves and Chinese are horrible against tanks so we should be there to stay!

We're using our bombers to hit his moving troops but it's pretty much just 1E's. I need to make this a higher priority, actually. IF they're in move mode we'll knock them into combat and if they're in strat mode we'll do extra damage. I've already sent my turn so the next turn we'll start using the 2E's as well. Either way I don't think they'll arrive in time.

Down in the bottom left corner you can barely see I have 2 rgt's of approx 250 AV going to shock attack tomorrow. I had one rgt there for awhile and it couldn't quite get the job done. Tomorrow we'll win or wreck the Chinese at the least. There's also a Bde headed for Pakhoi. The rgt's may be there first but either way all three will link up and head to Nanning once they've taken the other two bases. That should open up a line into IndoChina for me. It's useful in case I have to siphon some troops from China to send to the Burma theater now, rather than later. My preference is to push North and take a left at Kweiyang. I can send 10 divisions through the mountains into Burma if I want. It'll be an uphill struggle (haha) but will likely end up happening. I think it's about the only way I'll make progress in Burma. He's reinforced too heavily for the troops on hand to make any progress. I've seen at least two armored bde's there. They really roughed up a few of my divisions. One was down around 20 AV for awhile.

Anyhow, that's China.

Joe

PS Cavalry, I haven't found the link for that reference file. If you want it PM me your email and I'll send the PDF to you (that goes for anybody who's reading). I also have an economic primer PDF that I'll send if you want it too. I wish I remembered who did them because they are truly excellent resources and I'd love to give credit where it is so greatly due.

[Empire101]

Good!

Things look good. Just keep up that pressure on China.

If time and assets are are on your side the capture of Kweilin, Liuchow & Nanning make his positon in the south unsustainable.

Not only does it open up more juicy opportunities, you will have outflanked the Changsha river line, forcing him into fight or flight mode, the former, if you are careful can lead to pocketing large numbers of enemy troops.[:D]


This thread might shed some light on your aspirations in China:-
tm.asp?m=3134109

[Prydwen]

Hi,

I'm going to keep pushing until he stops me. Got a China update. Looks like I was one to two days later than I'd like to be. I'll post another picture. The situation is still ok. He managed to get some more units into Liuchow and Kweilen but it isn't overpowering. 5 in one and 7 in the other. One in between.

The shock attack will be made by 5 units totaling about 200 AV. The other 450 is in pursuit mode and will follow wherever they go. If they go West we likely crush another unit and if they go to Kweilen we're in the base and will try a deliberate attack to see what we're up against. If it's too much we dig in and wait on the infantry. Once they arrive the tanks can go mobile again.

That base to the bottom of the last picture fell, by the way. There was one part of a divided corps there and it surrendered. There's another 108 combat squads that are out of the way. We're over the 350 mark for the month. Anything else is cake. The two rgt's there are proceeding as planned to Pakhoi, then Nanning.

I may see what kind of a reaction I can provoke down South of Changsha. I could park a couple or three divisions in each of the three hexes to the W, NW, and NE (labeled A) of the dot base down there. I feel fine with dividing a division to cover the other three hexes (labeled B). Then we bomb and see what he does. It might open up opportunities if he weakens himself in other areas or convince him to pull some units from the Western fight or at least keep them out of it for awhile. Could be critical. I may push in the North again too.

Anyway, here is the picture.


Joe

Edit: I forgot to mention the sweeps of Palembang went in uncoordinated. We ended up with equal losses so I'm not too upset. I lost 36 Oscars to 37 of his fighters. It breaks down to 22 P43's, 9 P40E's, 8 P39D's, 7 P400's, and 1 Hurricane. Recon only shows 50 fighters but I think it's actually around 80-90.

[Prydwen]

I find myself rather irritated. Nay, irritated is not strong enough! I'm quite upset. From an email from my opponent:

I notice Japanese Armor has via presut option unintentionally penetrated through jungle and reached Kwalin,
as the Supplies line is blocked at 75/55 I request them to retreat back to were they come from or that yesterdays turn is redone as you got a unpredictable result with your presuit option.

The problem with the location they have now is that they unrightfully block a important rail line. The trail or path to the base goes through hex 75/55 who is held by a Chinese corps.

I realize that this is unintentionally as we have discussed the supplies solution for armor previously but felt I had to mention it so that we do not escalate the problem. The best solution is probably just to redo yesterdays turn as moving them back out will take many days for you. To me it does not matter what you do as long as your troops do not attack until you have a supplies line established to your tanks.

This issue again. I gave him one freebie earlier in the game that probably is why he's still in Changsha (or not surrounded in Changsha). I had tanks poised to potentially take all three bases to the West of Changsha and I retreated because he raised this issue.

Not to mention he's wrong on a couple points. It absolutely was intentional and predictable. [;)]

Anybody got any ideas on what my response should be this time? Just pick a letter. A) No retreat or redo. I do what I want! B) Do a redo. C) Go halfway. Proceed with the current turn but don't attack again until the supply line is open. That's about two more days. D) None of the above. Fill in your own answer.

To cool my jets I'll compose an amusing anecdote from the great War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. We join our reluctant heroes in the field...

IJA commander: I feel like taking a break. I've seen way more of China than I ever wanted to. Seriously it feels like I've drove a tank all the way from Manchuria! Tomorrow we'll only attack with 1/3 of our forces. They'll all crap their pants and run anyway.
IJA 2nd in command: How about the rest of us pursue. It'll be a nice leisurely drive... Unless they run into the woods.
IJA commander: I like the sound of that... Except for the woods part. Still we'd best be prepared. Everybody who is pursuing tie a few fuel drums to your tank. We'll need it to keep up. It's amazing how far these Chinamen can run! It seems like they run 50 miles a day!
IJA 2nd in command: That makes no sense, sir. We drive tanks which travel at least twice as fast as infantry. We can't make 50 miles a day on a good road. How on Earth can they run 50 miles?! We need a better physical conditioning program...
IJA commander: I know, right? Those jerks probably will probably run for the trees so they'll have "cover" the jerky jerk faces! We'd best throw a few days worth of supplies and gas on the tanks because it'll take about two days to clear our supply line.
IJA 2nd in command: It'll be like the Beverly Hillbillies moving to Beverly Hills but we'll get there. I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it!!!

Seriously though, any thoughts?

Joe

[Prydwen]

Hi Fredrik,

Funny you mention 50 miles a day. I brought that up when I, again, asked for opinions in my AAR. I found it quite amusing. Someday when the war is over you can read it! Ah, the Hell with it! You know what? I'll put it in here. I think it's hilarious! (If I can brag on myself!:P tongue) I should write a book... big grin

IJA commander: I feel like taking a break. I've seen way more of China than I ever wanted to. Seriously it feels like I've drove a tank all the way from Manchuria! Tomorrow we'll only attack with 1/3 of our forces. They'll all crap their pants and run anyway.
IJA 2nd in command: How about the rest of us pursue. It'll be a nice leisurely drive... Unless they run into the woods.
IJA commander: I like the sound of that... Except for the woods part. Still we'd best be prepared. Everybody who is pursuing tie a few fuel drums to your tank. We'll need it to keep up. It's amazing how far these Chinamen can run! It seems like they run 50 miles a day!
IJA 2nd in command: That makes no sense, sir. We drive tanks which travel at least twice as fast as infantry. We can't make 50 miles a day on a good road. (In tanks for crying out loud!) How on Earth can they run 50 miles?! We need a better physical conditioning program...
IJA commander: I know, right? Those jerks probably will probably run for the trees so they'll have "cover" the jerky jerk faces! We'd best throw a few days worth of supplies and gas on the tanks because it'll take about two days to clear our supply line.
IJA 2nd in command: It'll be like the Beverly Hillbillies moving to Beverly Hills but we'll get there. I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it!!!

And that's why my name is ItsAMadHouse. tongue

Anyhow, I'm going to quote an email I sent the last time we had this issue.

Well, I’ve made my decision on how I will proceed. You aren’t getting everything you want. Neither am I. Although you raise valid points we did not and still do not have any rules governing the supply movement aspects of the game. Therefore I will continue to use my units as I see fit but will make an effort to pay better attention to the realities that the supply movement model cannot accurately depict...



...So, if there are any other issues you feel need brought up now is the time to do it. A fourth time where I am expected to give with little gain is highly unlikely if it isn’t brought up now. And I don’t want you to think I’m accusing you of anything and I'm quite happy with the way things are in our game. I’m a maintainer. We’re a plain and simple folk so I tend to speak plainly, simply, and honestly. And I tell you truly that I am greatly enjoying this game. I’m learning a tremendous amount and becoming a better player because of it.



With all that said, I consider the supply issue closed. And I’m happy to say the war is back on!

I’ve highlighted the parts I feel are important. I said I would "try" to do better. I didn't say that you would like how hard or how well I try. I saw fit to use a part of my tanks in pursuit mode. You don't like the result. Earlier I feel I had an excellent shot at taking the 3 bases to the West of Changsha earlier in the game. I retreated and I absolutely did not like the result. I feel Changsha would at the minimum be surrounded if I had pressed on as I intended. Obviously you couldn't predict this situation and bring it up earlier but I was serious when I said there probably wouldn't be a fourth time when I get no gain from the situation.

Again I'd like to point out, that I'm in aircraft maintenance in the military. And I'm a sergeant. We're supposed to be plain speaking and get-to-the-point people. Please, please don't take any offense. I absolutely do not mean anything that even remotely sounds like it might even possibly be a personal attack to be taken as such. I'm enjoying our game a great deal. I've learned so much in the few months we've been playing. And may I say, if you weren't speaking English as a second language, we wouldn't even be playing. I have English and a few words of Spanish. So, thanks for learning English so we can play a game. happy

However, it seems to me that you have mistakenly, I am sure, broken your own rules. For example; the troops from the Balikpapan garrison and Bandjermasin garrison. I realize they aren't tank or motorized units and all that that entails however, their nearest supply source is over 300 miles away (and, I'm only speculating here, probably low on supply) through some of the most dense and rough jungle in the world. happy

So, to close, I will offer a choice. A one or the other choice. Neither one may please you but that's the way it is. It is a war after all. We have a saying, "You have to play the cards you're dealt." The choice is to continue on with the current turn as is. The other option is do a redo. However. If you choose a redo, I will no longer follow the 4 month max advancement of airframes. Like I said, it's highly unlikely I'll give for no gain again and when we made that agreement I had already made a great deal of conversions to my R&D factories.

So, how do you want to proceed? Do you give some now or more later?

Joe

[Prydwen]

Hi,

Neither of us wants to be a pushover it seems. I hope to see the game continue or restart completely. But this may be the end.

I'll just post his email and my reply.

Hi buddy


Regarding the Dutch troops at Balikapapan they are dead and I moved them to you so you could kill them. (If they are there they can give intelligence, or DL bonus on nearby bases and units) so I try to move them to you for destruction. Once Balikapapan fell I started pulling them back to avoid the DL bonus, and once I saw you had troops enough i Balikapapan ect i started moving some back to you so you can kill them. Some move to Bandermeisen for same phurpess BUT i did not want to send everyone to same base in case you would not have enough troops to successfully be able to kill them.





I don’t want to be a pain in the ***, but to me it is very important that the game is played in a somewhat realistic manner. This is the reason for why I prefer to have a cap on
AC rehear (many make 1944 models in early 1943.. it is true, I have seen it in other games before). AND Reluctant Admiral already accelerate most models by several months anyway from the start.



Regarding the land war, I feel we both would benefit from not seeing it as a flat board with open terrain. But instead see it as what it is trying to display to us, here is jungle.. here is mountain ect. And then to conduct our movements accordingly.

If the IJA could have siced the area around changcha on 4 months I’m pretty sure they would have done so some time between 1937 and 1941. Your super Japanese troops has been given an acceleration as you can move troops from Manchuria at will, and I said that because I think you should be given that ability - however I then had in mind that we would play the land war at least with the fycical limitations in mind. (like terrain obstacles).

If this was the steppes of Russia or the fields of France you would hads no complaint from me, or Evan southern China were there is lots of Farmland hexes... but I do not feel we can blitz attack through 50 miles of uber dence jungle with tanks, it is at least not a kind of game that I would like to be part of.

I think that you would agree with me, Tank war in china was not possible in the way you conduct it in reality because of the terrain issues and the
walking-human-and-donkey based supplies chain.

I want opposition, that is why I recommended Reluctant Admiral, but I feel that it becomes a little to unrealistic for my taste if we ignore the terrain features in this way.
If you would play the Chinese camping with the terrain obstacles in mind your progress would been more realistic, but still significant since you have been given lots of extra
divisions because of Reluctant Admiral and then another bunch of divisions because of the unlimited Mansuko.



I appology that I did not bring this up before the game started, both this and the Aircraft research was to me so fundamental basics of the game that I though it was an absolutely given that those two considerations automatically would apply, that no house rule or discussion about it for that reason not would be needed.
I obviously should brought it up anyway, I of course realize that.


I am unable to pick between either of the options so I think our game have come to an end.
I think that is very sad as I enjoy the game very very much but the lack of realism on this area will be to much for me to be able to continue it.
It would also not be fair to you as you have other values and another acceptance for lack of realism then I do, and it is of course only my fault that I did not check this with you before the game started.

As far as I can say a House rule forcing us to pay attention to the terrain is the only way this game can continue, as this then permanently will resolve the problem.


Fredrik

And my reply:

Hi,

I'll make one last offer because it's an unfortunate situation and I would dislike seeing our game end over something so silly. ) laughing (Sorry if the face is inappropriate. I think it's funny. That's the only reason it's in this email.) It's as ridiculous to think that those Chinese units could retreat 50 miles in one day through any terrain as it is for tanks to pursue through that jungle. You can't control the one and I can't control the other. It's a failure of the game engine. Not you or me.

Option 1 is I will allow a redo and wherever my research goes is where it goes. Meaning I won't even touch aircraft R&D from now on. By my count I've altered 17 factories. If that means Shinden's will arrive in Dec 42 it's a risk you'll have to take. Or maybe I didn't advance Shinden! Maybe it all went into the Ki-201!!!!! >:) devil >:) devil >:) devil

Option 2. We do a complete restart of our game with a better understanding of what each other expects. I actually wouldn't mind this option. I may even prefer it. We would, of course, want to re-discuss house rules. And we could us the stacking limits map. That should help ease the issue we have right now. It would still be there but I think would be easier controlled. And I look back at the things I've done and think I could've (and should've) done so much better!

Option 3. Quit the game and go our separate ways.

I hope that we can continue in some fashion or the other. Believe it or not I'm not trying to be an *** either! (Or a pushover.) I can tell you truly I've enjoyed this game more than any other I've ever played! I started playing a human again for the entertainment and so I would get better at the game. I feel I've accomplished both. The better at the game part is mostly due to you being such a tough opponent! Whatever choice you make I hope there are no hard feelings. I have come to consider you a friend. Should the day ever come where you find yourself in Wichita know that you'll have a place to stay.

Joe

Here's hoping we can continue.

Joe

[John 3rd]

Hmmm...'tis a puzzlement! Don't understand his issues to be truthful. OK. They are obvious but normal for AE. The ground stuff is well...

What EXTRA Divisions are he talking about in RA? Does he mean the SNLF Assault Divisions? JUST TO CLARIFY: We pooled the original SNLF units into Brigades, however, to get them to divide back down to their components the Editor forced me to place them into the slot of 'divisions.' There are the EXACT same number of SNLF troops within RA as the real Japanese had in the war. We simply constructed them into having the ability of making them into a larger Shock Unit.

I think that makes sense...

[Prydwen]

You make perfect sense John. I smell what you're stepping in!

I don't know. I have not heard back from him yet. And I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to knock him as a person or an opponent. He seems a good guy and he's a good tough opponent. We obviously don't see eye to eye on all things but I doubt any two people in the world do. And in his defense he told me he has played the same opponent for the past 6 or 7 years. Would you remember to bring up every last possible detail that you decided on 7 years ago? Or even 2? Me neither.

My issue is mainly that some concerns have been raised throughout the game always after the fact and I've conceded the issue every time. I'm done being a pushover. We made rules at the beginning of the game. It's unfair to me to keep changing them whenever I'm presented with an advantage.

With that said Fredrik is probably right! You probably can't keep large numbers of tanks supplied through that jungle or woods? I never actually checked. I that a forest or jungle hex? Whatever. It doesn't matter. It is just as unrealistic for tanks to move 50 miles through the jungle as it is for infantry to retreat the same 50 miles on foot! I said as much in one of my emails. It's a function of the game engine and I can't change it any more than I can change the load/unload rates for ports or the rules on spoilage of supplies no matter how much I like or dislike it.

In some ways I'm glad this came up. It was going to be an issue again sooner or later. If the minutia is going to be a deal breaker I'd rather it is now that two years down the road. We'll just have to wait and see what he says. I really think a total restart with a serious and very detailed discussion of house rules is the best way to go. I have been considering picking up a second game because of things I've learned from this one. It's the never ending quest for the perfect opening.

Anyway. Off the soap box. Back to sleep hopefully. 10 am is way too early for a night shift guy to be awake!

Joe

[Prydwen]

Hi,

Fredrik is thinking on the matter and will get back to me sometime in the next 24 hours or so. We may still have a game.

Joe

[Prydwen]

Hi,

I'm sorry to say we are game over. It's been an awesome ride and I salute my opponent. He gave me one tough fight!

Best of luck to you in your future games, Fredrik!

Joe

[John 3rd]

This is too bad. Good Thoughts and try to give it another whirl!

[Prydwen]

Hi,

I'm going to take a week or two and play around with the map with stacking limits. After I see how that changes things I'll look for an opponent. You can't get rid of me that easily! [:D]

Joe