The Great Patriotic AAR (no BigAnorak please)

[Tarhunnas]

A closeup of 1st Panzer Group east of Kiev. They have had a hard time, and look somewhat the worse for wear. I will try to cobble together a couple of counterattacks. Map before Soviet moves.

[Tarhunnas]

Losses turn 12. I did perform a couple of successful counterattacks on the panzers, but the casualty figures for losses the current turn don't look right, I am pretty sure my casualties were higher than the Germans. I don't trust this screen. Still, the panzers have suffered.

[Tarhunnas]

And OOB atfter Soviet turn 12. Zhukov has been moved to STAVKA.

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 13. Nothing dramatic happening, the Germans are chugging forward, but no real breakthroughs.

Here is a closeup of the Leningrad front after Soviet moves. The city is still holding, but for how long...?

[Tarhunnas]

In the South, the weakened divisions of 1st Panzer group are attempting an ambitious exploit, but the leading panzer divisions are cut off and routed in a heroic counterattack by Eremenkos 6th Army.

[Tarhunnas]

OOB after Soviet turn 13. German tank strength is suddenly increasing! [X(] Is that because some divisions have been resting and refurbishing, or is it new reinforcements? I recall there is a panzer corps arriving around this time, so that might be it. But I have an uncomfortable feeling that a few panzer divisions are not accounted for...

[bigbaba]

congratulation for routing 2 divisions. this poor guys will be not able to do any big attacks in 41 and are out of the race.

[Flaviusx]

2. and 5. Panzer arrive on turn 13, Tarhunnas.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

2. and 5. Panzer arrive on turn 13, Tarhunnas.

Thanks! That must be it.

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 14.

The Leningrad front before Soviet moves. The Fascist hordes are pushing forward, but only advance one hex against the city.

[Tarhunnas]

A valiant counterattack from the southeast advances into the German flank. The Germans will easily take back the hexes, but hopefully it will upset their plans. The advance also places a unit adjacent to the panzer stack, which is presumably resting, thus preventing them from being fully refreshed.

[Tarhunnas]

On the Moscow front, many German infantry divisions are down to CV 4. Don't really know how that happened, but this makes it possible to concentrate for counterattacks, and disperse again in time for the Axis turn. I acheive 4 retreats, helped by the 1:1 kicking in of course, but still.

[Tarhunnas]

And the South. The panzers from AGC have more or less met those from AGS, but only a few Soviet divisions were cut off, and the front west of Kursk is a general brawl.

Note that the brave defenders of Kiev are still holding out!

[Flaviusx]

I too am very surprised at the low infantry CVs in AGC.

Leningrad will probably fall, but you've done a great job keeping him busy up there. He can't get stuff out of there in time to hit Moscow now. It's a pity you didn't try to hold up the Finns by the chokepoint up north, though. Otherwise you could just sit tight on the Volkhov. With them at the Svir, your position becomes very sketchy up north and may force a withdrawal further than really necessary up there.

My sense is that AGN wasn't reinforced at all, which shows you just how hard it is to hold Leningrad even against a stock AGN. (It can be done I believe, I've done it, but only against a stock AGN and only with a major commitment up north.)

Generally speaking, I'm doubting that spreading the panzers out like this is the best way to play the Axis. Bob doesn't have enough armor up north, center or south to deliver dramatic results. Grinding on a broad front may just not be good enough, grinding in combination with mass concentrations of armor in given sectors is better imo. Certainly AGN and AGS have had a much more difficult time of it without borrowing armor from AGC. The logistics in the center are such that the big Moscow push has to wait until mid August anyways, so I don't see the payoff in keeping all of Hoth and Guderian in the center. Smashing the flanks and then reconcentrating for Moscow when the rails get to Smolensk just seems more effective to me.

For the love of God, garrison Moscow. That's just asking for trouble, and it's a rookie mistake you shouldn't be making, you're too good for that.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I too am very surprised at the low infantry CVs in AGC.

Leningrad will probably fall, but you've done a great job keeping him busy up there. He can't get stuff out of there in time to hit Moscow now. It's a pity you didn't try to hold up the Finns by the chokepoint up north, though. Otherwise you could just sit tight on the Volkhov. With them at the Svir, your position becomes very sketchy up north and may force a withdrawal further than really necessary up there.

I haven't thought of that. I usually just move the units there down to the front against the Germans, every unit will tell, and delaying the Finns will just generate avoidable casualties. But I see your point.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

My sense is that AGN wasn't reinforced at all, which shows you just how hard it is to hold Leningrad even against a stock AGN. (It can be done I believe, I've done it, but only against a stock AGN and only with a major commitment up north.)

Generally speaking, I'm doubting that spreading the panzers out like this is the best way to play the Axis. Bob doesn't have enough armor up north, center or south to deliver dramatic results. Grinding on a broad front may just not be good enough, grinding in combination with mass concentrations of armor in given sectors is better imo. Certainly AGN and AGS have had a much more difficult time of it without borrowing armor from AGC. The logistics in the center are such that the big Moscow push has to wait until mid August anyways, so I don't see the payoff in keeping all of Hoth and Guderian in the center. Smashing the flanks and then reconcentrating for Moscow when the rails get to Smolensk just seems more effective to me.

I think it is not really the dispersal of the panzer groups, as IMHO each PG is much a self contained fist, but somehow the tactics haven't been working out for the Germans. I have not been off balance, and if the Soviets is not outmaneuvered and off balance, they can cook up all kinds of nasty trouble for the Axis.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

For the love of God, garrison Moscow. That's just asking for trouble, and it's a rookie mistake you shouldn't be making, you're too good for that.

We are communists! We don't love god! [:D] But you do have a point, I should have put one more unit in Moscow, but the nearest panzers are down at Orel, not gassed up as far as I can see, and three lines of Soviets at the riverlines in front of them, so I doubt it is even theoretically possible for them to get to Moscow. But, the Germans can pull nasty tricks, so you are right, it was an oversight on my part.

[Tarhunnas]

It is not just AGC, look at this shot of PG1 and accompanying infantry! This just doesn't feel normal!

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

A valiant counterattack from the southeast advances into the German flank. The Germans will easily take back the hexes, but hopefully it will upset their plans. The advance also places a unit adjacent to the panzer stack, which is presumably resting, thus preventing them from being fully refreshed.

This is more or less what happened on my current game (chronologically speaking). What I did in your similar situation was starting the evacuation of rifle divisions (in your case think about the three 3-units stacks south of the city). After all, once Pavlovo falls you are doomed. I had managed to evacuate almost a dozen rifle divisions before Marquo captured the city (and finally lost 20 of them) [:)]

The thing is his panzers might start leaving the area anyway.

Well, unless you really plan to HOLD the city... [8D]

[Klydon]

If he has stock forces from just AGN, he doesn't have enough to continue the attack on Leningrad itself without help from PG4. Part of it depends on how far south he has 16th army, but even if he has it all north of the lake, it would still be tough sledding without PG4.

[bigbaba]

hmm, his panzers in the south have also a realy low CV.

[hfarrish]

Could BA have reduced TOEs on his infantry? That's really the only way I can think of to explain those CVs. Would be a very odd move but maybe he has some deep thinking going on.