Idaho defends the Motherland

[IdahoNYer]

The Pzgrp 4 penetration before Soviet any moves. First order of business, assess the damage.

First thing to note is this is a VERY narrow penetration. Just how vulnerable are the Germans, we need to find out - air and ground recon! Air recon doesn't show much - it seems to indicate at gap in the German advance near the neck. That's good news.

Next, I move some mobile units (cav, tank and infantry with good APs) to see what they can find. 11th and 27th Armies easily cut the German corridor without a fight. That's great news, at least I can perhaps minimize the damage. I don't want a repeat of the Lvov Pocket - losing more troops in a bigger pocket - yet the tempation to cut off and perhaps kill off a German panzer regiment or even a division needs to be explored!

What I intend to do is extract the 11th Army - along with the Reserve Front's 22nd and 24th Armies to the south of the screen shot - and reform a line. Abandon ground to the south while retaining units to defend Leningrad.

However, I realize through some more ground recon that the Germans are VERY stretched and perhaps vulnerable. I can't pass this up. Instead of just giving up ground, perhaps I can pull out most of the threatened units, but at the same time encircle the Germans - there aren't many panzer divisions here in AGN to come to the rescue!

So I elect to push forward the Northern Front's 23rd and 28th Armies and STAVKA's 31st Army to "strangle" the German spearhead, cutting it off at the base, and forcing the Germans to extract it.

[IdahoNYer]

After Soviet moves, this is the result.....

This could turn out very well for the home team, or another major pocket.....

I've managed to isolate all the panzer and motorized divisions (I think) in AGN, along with thier HQs. While he'll have no trouble in extracting the southern most group (8th Pz, Tot SS, and 3rd Mot), with only infantry initially available, relieving the northern most group may be challenging....

Worst case, and he is able to clear a corridor to the trapped panzers, I "should" be able to withdraw the majority of troops eastwards across the swamps toward Kholm.

Best case, I'm able to hold the noose around one or two of the northern most pockets and kill them in the Soviet turn......

In any case, I can't pass up the attempt to try and isolate these penetrations.....

[IdahoNYer]

Armee Group Center's penetration, before Soviet moves.

Massing both panzer gruppes in one penetration really surprised me. I figured I was just missing PzGrp 3 west of Vitebsk. Instead, both PzGrps, along with infantry massed to break through the 20th Army astride the Land Bridge.

Give 20th Army credit - it didn't run, it fought hard, including a number of "holds" and employing the reserve armor effectively - but to no avail. Germans were able to penetrate significantly into the rear areas. And here, the penetration "shoulders" appear to be well defended.

The positive is that nothing was encircled. Note the cutting of the rail line near Toropets - preventing extracting the 22nd Army via rail. Fortunately, the 22nd and 24th Armies are well rested and well supplied - they have plenty of movement points available.

Plan here is simple - recon to see if there is a weakness, then pull back. Don't sacrifice forces unnecessarily.

Recon finds a potential gap south of Velizh - enough perhaps to cut off the spearhead, but only a very temporary cut.

Reserve Front will attempt to reform on the northern and western side of the penetration. Western Front will take charge of the Moscow Belt units are form armies to prevent further advance eastward toward Moscow. It will also attempt to hold the Dniepr to Smolensk - if for no other reason to entice the Germans to attack south - and not toward Moscow or link up with PzGrp 4 to the north.

The "STAVKA Moscow Belt" units are numerous and well stocked with manpower - but are only at about 50% fill with artillery and AT guns. Nor are they particularly well trained. But they are certainly available!

[IdahoNYer]

After moves, we manage to isolate the German spearhead with a 20 mile corridor, but those gallant Soviet units are sure to be lost shortly.


The Reserve Front, which bore the brunt of this attack, redeploys as follows:

22nd Army pulls out swiftly to the NW and establishes a new defensive line without hinderance.
24th Army also pulls out, and is sizably reinforced to assume a new defensive line at the tip of the German penetration.
20th Army, formerly the strongest army in the Soviet Union, cut in half by the German attack is further divided.
- part of the forces on the north side pull back with the 22nd and 24th Armies
- three divisions are left behind after cutting off the German penetration - these are written off
- the remaining forces on the southern side pull back east to rejoin the remaining forces in the coming weeks.

Western Front:
- Reforms its 10th Army with 9 Divisions from STAVKA on the eastern side of the penetration and probes westward to make contact. It succeeds in pushing back one motorized regiment.
- 3rd Army continues to hold the Dniepr line toward Smolensk, but pulls forces east as it prepares to give ground.

STAVKA:
- Brings up additional rifle divisions, forming the 34th Army with six of these along the upper Dniepr as it assumes the "Moscow Outer Ring" defenses.
- Additional rifle divisions, in various stages of readiness and equipment are brought up from the reaches of the Soviet Union as Moscow is threatened.

Overall - this attack is probably the most significant as he has truly massed an iron fist aimed toward Moscow. I can perhaps slow this juggernaut down, but I can't stop it with ground power. A lack of supply and fatigue may however. Or a diversion either north or south.

[IdahoNYer]

In the south, we just didn't pull back fast enough - again, the capability of the panzers were underestimated.....

His attack penetrates 9th Army's thin screen line with little effort - but no effort is make to turn north or south to pocket troops. Good. Instead, his troops head east to the Dniepr Bend. Perhaps intent on taking industry in Kirovograd and Krivoi Rog - both of which had been evacuated. But the attack threatens the cities on the Dniepr Bend itself - which HAVE NOT had their industry moved. Screening them is a priority.

North of the attack, Southwestern Front seems to have little to its west putting pressure on it - that will allow me to pull back to the Dniepr and link up with fresh STAVKA forces holding the bank and digging in.

What this attack does is force me to a more hasty withdrawal - one which I can extract the forward elements of the Southern Front by rail - and reform along the Dniepr itself.

With luck, German supply will need a few weeks to catch up, and we can contest the Dniepr crossing effectively...

[IdahoNYer]

After the Soviet moves, the defenses are established along the Dniepr without any issues. Rail is maximized in both withdrawing the Southern Front elements as well as bringing up STAVKA reserves from throughout the Ukraine.

Southwestern Front still needs some reorganizing as the Lvov Pocket has now been liquidated - Some army HQs are still moving eastwards.

STAVKA - Both the 16th and 19th Armies are fairly strong and in good positions on the river bank. They may remain independant, or join the Southwestern Front. We'll see. I think I have some time here....

Southern Front - with the 9th Army screening the Dniepr Bend and 38th and Coastal Armies extending south along the river are thin, but should have some time to build up before the Germans can cross.

I do pull out two rifle divisions from Odessa - I need them on the Dniepr more than sacrificing them in the fortress. They are replaced with NKVD border units (one Rifle Div also remains).

I think the Germans will take about 2 weeks to prep an attack across the Dniepr near Cherkassy. He's got to have stretched is supply lines here. I'll use that time to reinforce the defenses and remove industry. However, priority is the Moscow and then the Leningrad areas.

If nothing else, these three attacks force me to divide my forces and commit reserves I'd rather have held back. I'm starting to run low on squads and personnel. To help with that, I reduce all HQs to 50% manning and all units to 80% fill. That should help, and max a rifle division down form 13,000 to around 10,000 men. By extracting the support units from the Lvov Pocket, I have plenty of artillery in support units right now. I want sustain that...

[Disgruntled Veteran]

This guys attacks are hideous IMO. He keeps ballooning his attacks and leaving his flanks too vulnerable. I realize you lost a lot cutting them off before but now he might not be able to recover. Reminds me of "Micheal" the German offensive in 1918.

He just tries to ram a fist in your front and hope for the best from the fallout. Bleh..it might payoff but Im a bit too cautious (wise??) to attack like that.

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

While all three attacks are hugely successful in penetrating the front and exploiting deep into the rear, I am very surprised that each attack is apparently a single, stand alone thrust - none appear synchronized with another, nor are any pockets formed (at least initially). For instance, had the PzGrp 4 attack wheeled southeast instead of northwards, three Soviet armies would have been bagged!!

I think we're quite a few here to share this opinion. Well, good for you though, a game without mistakes on his part would be much less fun!
But considering the limited recon he did over there, his choice is quite astonishing and reckless - even against a new player, and yet he does it and you are far from being new.

I can't see him get himself free easily in the north, even with an air-supply galore. I think he'll be very, very lucky to recover his PzDiv alive, and even then they will be awfully depleted. I think you just pulled a great move. Pound them surrounded units, and you that may even save Leningrad for 1941.

On everything else: great stuff. You retreat when he wants to fight, and you stand where he wants you to leave. Playing a gotterdammerung game for hundred of turns does help to know when and where to strike I guess [;)]

[janh]

Scar seems to really want to catch up with the time lost now, but being too aggressive (yes, perhaps even a little reckless) won't pay off either. He already lost a net of two turns, and with three PzGr. spearheads cut off almost fully he lost at least one more turn now. This game is not exactly going well for him. If it continues like this, he won't cause you the casualties he must so that the blizzard offensive with the benefits you'll get won't end up a disaster.

On the other hand, I see much uncertainty about forces, some "little chaos", lots of fighting and breaks needed to sort out the rear and supplies, possibly a change of his larger plans mid-way... This AAR does have a much more realistic feel to it than the "streamlined games" played by optimizing what can be squeezed out of rules, the 1st turn tuning, the supply system and mulling, etc. Much more interesting, I find, although Scar may not agree with that just now [;)]

[timmyab]

Could be game over for 41st pz corps here I think.Will probably depend on whether 56th pz corps is fueled up or not.
Your opponent needs to rethink his Axis tactics generally.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: janh

Scar seems to really want to catch up with the time lost now, but being too aggressive (yes, perhaps even a little reckless) won't pay off either. He already lost a net of two turns, and with three PzGr. spearheads cut off almost fully he lost at least one more turn now. This game is not exactly going well for him. If it continues like this, he won't cause you the casualties he must so that the blizzard offensive with the benefits you'll get won't end up a disaster.

On the other hand, I see much uncertainty about forces, some "little chaos", lots of fighting and breaks needed to sort out the rear and supplies, possibly a change of his larger plans mid-way... This AAR does have a much more realistic feel to it than the "streamlined games" played by optimizing what can be squeezed out of rules, the 1st turn tuning, the supply system and mulling, etc. Much more interesting, I find, although Scar may not agree with that just now [;)]

Well said!

This is the most interesting AAR I have seen in some time.

[A game]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: janh

Scar seems to really want to catch up with the time lost now, but being too aggressive (yes, perhaps even a little reckless) won't pay off either. He already lost a net of two turns, and with three PzGr. spearheads cut off almost fully he lost at least one more turn now. This game is not exactly going well for him. If it continues like this, he won't cause you the casualties he must so that the blizzard offensive with the benefits you'll get won't end up a disaster.

On the other hand, I see much uncertainty about forces, some "little chaos", lots of fighting and breaks needed to sort out the rear and supplies, possibly a change of his larger plans mid-way... This AAR does have a much more realistic feel to it than the "streamlined games" played by optimizing what can be squeezed out of rules, the 1st turn tuning, the supply system and mulling, etc. Much more interesting, I find, although Scar may not agree with that just now [;)]

Well said!

This is the most interesting AAR I have seen in some time.

I agree! As much as everyone seems to be desperately seeking the holy grail of most optimized and streamlined gameplay it doesnt always make for an interesting AAR, as we begin to see the same cookie cutter moves over and over again.

And occasionally mistakes can lead your opponent to get over confident, providing you with an opportunity to get back in the game...

Scar is certainly digging a hole for himself though, hopefully he can consolidate and start making some pockets!

[IdahoNYer]

Thanks for all the positive comments guys!! Really appreciate it.

This one is just getting started! Plenty of time for both of us to mess things up. Scar surprised me with these very aggressive penetrations. I'm trying to avoid "gamey" (no offense intended here - concepts that work in the game system, but not how they would do things historically) methods like a carpet, or even a checkerboard, but trying to look at how STAVKA would defend - and when, where to counter attack.

The big surprise for me this game is the tremendous change in fortifications - wish I had this when I was the German in 1941. But it looks like attrition and lack of replacements are hitting the Germans harder this time around as a "balance".

Playing the Soviets are a challenge - something very different from what I'm used to.

Lots of fun though....even getting crushed in 1941. Kinda akin to playing the Allies in WiTP in early '42.......it WILL get better!

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
The big surprise for me this game is the tremendous change in fortifications - wish I had this when I was the German in 1941. But it looks like attrition and lack of replacements are hitting the Germans harder this time around as a "balance".

Playing the Soviets are a challenge - something very different from what I'm used to.

Yeah, as i noted to ur in the old AAR. if u look at forts overall through out the war they now work more in favor of the axis side.
U sure on attrition? it isnt just that they arent recieving them from being in front lines?
When ever attrition has been touched in patches they have consistantly been toned down. They half now of what they use to be IIRC.
As too number of replacements neither do i see any thing that should have changed on axis side. Manpower and multiplier is the same as always, basicly the same oob, kickback return from disabled is the same, unlike on russian side.

Glad that u find it a challange and its fun [:)]

Rasmus

[Flaviusx]

Axis attrition is down now, Idaho, not up.

So far as the forts go, yeah, we solved the 1942 fort spam problem but probably broke it for the rest of the war. The new fort scheme punishes the side that is AP starved. The Axis has APs to burn after the first couple of months in the war and can literally build hundreds of these things. The Soviet Union is always strapped for APs. I might buy a dozen FRs over the course of an entire game. And probably could get away with as few as...one. (The one covering the backdoor of Leningrad.) They are basically not cost effective for the Soviets.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

While all three attacks are hugely successful in penetrating the front and exploiting deep into the rear, I am very surprised that each attack is apparently a single, stand alone thrust - none appear synchronized with another, nor are any pockets formed (at least initially). For instance, had the PzGrp 4 attack wheeled southeast instead of northwards, three Soviet armies would have been bagged!!

I think we're quite a few here to share this opinion. Well, good for you though, a game without mistakes on his part would be much less fun!
But considering the limited recon he did over there, his choice is quite astonishing and reckless - even against a new player, and yet he does it and you are far from being new.

I can't see him get himself free easily in the north, even with an air-supply galore. I think he'll be very, very lucky to recover his PzDiv alive, and even then they will be awfully depleted. I think you just pulled a great move. Pound them surrounded units, and you that may even save Leningrad for 1941.

On everything else: great stuff. You retreat when he wants to fight, and you stand where he wants you to leave. Playing a gotterdammerung game for hundred of turns does help to know when and where to strike I guess [;)]

Generally when I do something crazy like the AGN thrust I do air drops to lead units. As soon as you get to them they have 30 to 35 Mp's and you can end up with a big bag of units. They look cut off but realy are about to do 2nd leg of the thrust.

In this case the infantry can easly get to the 2nd pocket as I am guessing they are the 90 morale dudes that are always at the front of that spearhead. Really bad planning on GHC to let the first bunch of panzers get cut off.

It is turn 6 and if GHC just did a HQB then he will easly get to the 3rd and 4th pocket.

If he did not then the tanks in first pocket should have enough fuel to get to 3rd pocket and 3rd will have enough to get to 4th even if he did not do a HQB.

Many times MT and myself will do something that looks crazy, but its a trap as all them panzer units that are "cut off" will have 35+ MP's as soon as they get relinks to front.

Generally I will have 3 or 4 divisions that are not cut off that just did a HQB. What appears bad turns into a huge pocket for GHC.

But I am guessing that GHC was planning on SHC running and not fighting and thing will really go bad for GHC

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: janh
This AAR does have a much more realistic feel to it than the "streamlined games" played by optimizing what can be squeezed out of rules, the 1st turn tuning, the supply system and mulling, etc. Much more interesting, I find, although Scar may not agree with that just now [;)]

Muling is 100% not possible any more as of a few patchs ago.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Axis attrition is down now, Idaho, not up.

So far as the forts go, yeah, we solved the 1942 fort spam problem but probably broke it for the rest of the war. The new fort scheme punishes the side that is AP starved. The Axis has APs to burn after the first couple of months in the war and can literally build hundreds of these things. The Soviet Union is always strapped for APs. I might buy a dozen FRs over the course of an entire game. And probably could get away with as few as...one. (The one covering the backdoor of Leningrad.) They are basically not cost effective for the Soviets.

As far as forts go I am thinking based on past games ect that the GHC really doesn't need to build any until late summer 42.

The winter line is really not effective at all. I am planning on using the AP to switch around units/commanders ect. The extra troops are needed for the 42 summer offensive.

Basicly usless for both sides until late 42, which is for the best.

[IdahoNYer]

Turn 7; Jul 31, 1941.......Clear

Industry: Armaments moved from: 8xDnepropetrovsk, 4xZaporozhye, and 8xPoltava

Overall, a pretty quiet turn. AGN focused on relieving the trapped panzers, while AGC and AGS basically.....consolidated...

Here, against AGN, we have success! Screen shot shows AGN attacks to relieve the panzers, and they manage to fight a corridor to all but the 36th Mot Div, which remains encircled.

This is probably for the best, as I'm not sure that the Soviet forces would have been able to force two stacked panzer divisions into submission!

[hfarrish]

Have to be honest, this game is a complete mess - and I knew it would be when (not giving away intel) Scar noted in his AAR that he didn't have much experience as the German side. IMO, it would be sporting to offer a do-over; no shame in that since the German side really requires serious experience with optimizing supply and knowing what to do and not to do with the panzers...

Just think you guys are not going to have much fun from here on out and we already have the Terje AAR of what happens when someone who has no idea how to play as the Germans tries it out against a human for the first time.

No criticism of Scar - I don't even try as the German b/c I know it's f'ing difficult...although very rewarding once you learn how to do it.