How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

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obvert
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: SenToku

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: SenToku

IJN seems to have number of suberb scout plane platforms in its inventory, such as Chitose class, Tone class and later converted Mogami. Is there a reason why IJN player needs to use his strike planes to Search or ASW roles, when he can have as many as 100 long range float and recon plane models with his carriers?

Seems kind of waste to double or triple train their pilots, especially since the losses among them are usually pretty heavy and pilot training is what it is.

In addition to Crackaces points, some of these ships are subject to conversions. The CS may end up as CVL, and the Mogami upgrade is a choice with a lengthy conversion process right in the middle of the war.

Really though, what are your CV pilots doing most of the time? Mostly sitting in port or moving to another location behind the front lines. So why not improve whatever skill you choose during that time?

Doesn't the D4Y-C make this argument completely meaningless by the time CS ships (Chitose class at very least) are leaving for conversion? Mogami seems usefull to me as the number of squardons able to use D4Y-C are limited and with Tone class it would still have min of 20 search float planes in CV TF.

Nothing against the D4Y1-C, but they won't solve your search entirely. The service rating is not ideal and there are few groups that can use them, plus you're then taking space still from strike planes. why not just fly 10% search with the planes there already?
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Jorge_Stanbury
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

ORIGINAL: SenToku

IJN seems to have number of suberb scout plane platforms in its inventory, such as Chitose class, Tone class and later converted Mogami. Is there a reason why IJN player needs to use his strike planes to Search or ASW roles, when he can have as many as 100 long range float and recon plane models with his carriers?

Seems kind of waste to double or triple train their pilots, especially since the losses among them are usually pretty heavy and pilot training is what it is.

SenToku, if you want to play "historically" then you should keep NavSearch done by floats. Japanese doctrine was to use 100% of carrier planes for direct roles and seaplanes for support.
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Puhis
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Puhis »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury


SenToku, if you want to play "historically" then you should keep NavSearch done by floats. Japanese doctrine was to use 100% of carrier planes for direct roles and seaplanes for support.

Except this claim is simply wrong... [8|]
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Jorge_Stanbury
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

are you sure? I read it somewhere; and I am talking early war, before Midway

EDIT: I got it from here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/onl ... midway.htm

"While the U.S. Navy was busy experimenting with the carrier-versus-carrier duels that would so heavily influence its future battle doctrine, the Japanese were still struggling to perfect their carrier doctrine. Sidetracked by the war in China, Japanese naval aviators made little progress in working out an effective strategy for dealing with enemy flight decks.23 Like their American counterparts, the Japanese expected aerial operations to precede the “decisive” clash of battleships that both sides predicted would determine the outcome of the next war.24 Unlike the Americans, however, they failed to anticipate the importance of carrier-based scouting, concentrating entirely on the attack mission.25 No scouting units were assigned to the Japanese carriers, and little emphasis was placed on this important aspect of carrier warfare. Reconnaissance was relegated to a few floatplanes, which would be catapulted from accompanying cruisers. The Japanese also overlooked or failed to develop the deck park, relying instead on the hangar deck to store and prepare aircraft for flight. On the Japanese carriers, aircraft capacity was determined by the size of the hangar, not of the flight deck, as was the case for the Americans.26 The disparity in aircraft-handling procedures and search strategies resulted in substantial differences in the makeup of the typical air group deployed by the two sides.

(...)

"That the lack of a carrier-borne capability for scouting (reconnaissance, in Japanese naval parlance) contributed greatly to the demise of the Japanese carriers was affirmed by Akagi’s former air officer, Mitsuo Fuchida. As Fuchida explained, writing in 1955, Japanese carrier forces were devoted entirely to the attack mission.45 There were no organic scouting units of any appreciable size in the Japanese navy, and very little emphasis was placed on this important aspect of carrier warfare: “In both training and organization our naval aviators [devoted] too much importance and effort . . . to attack.”46 Reluctance to weaken the carriers’ striking power led to a single-phase search plan that was insufficient—in Fuchida’s opinion—to ensure the carriers’ security. “Had Admiral [Chuichi] Nagumo [the commander of the Mobile Force] carried out an earlier and more carefully planned two-phase search . . . the disaster that followed might have been avoided.”47
"
(...)

"The American victory at the battle of Midway was abetted by major weaknesses in Japanese carrier doctrine. The most significant of these was the IJN’s inability to ensure (its leadership having previously failed to allocate sufficient assets for searching) that no enemy carriers were in striking range of its own. This fatal flaw in doctrine caused the Japanese to be caught while their hangar decks were packed with aircraft being fueled and armed. The outcome of an attack in such circumstances had been first predicted in 1933 by Commander Hugh Douglas, U.S. Navy, before an audience at the Naval War College: “In case an enemy carrier is encountered with planes on deck, a successful dive bombing attack by even a small number of planes may greatly influence future operations.”50 The deadliness of such a contingency was well understood by American carrier aviators, who continually worried about being caught in that perilous situation.51"
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Puhis »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

are you sure? I read it somewhere; and I am talking early war, before Midway

Yes. If you look at battle of Coral sea, you notice that Japan used carrier torpedo bombers as search planes. They also had a few float planes and flying boats and land based torpedo bombers flying search mission. Also in Midway, 2 out of 7 search planes were Kates.

Battle of Coral Sea, from Wikipedia:

At 07:22 (on 7 May) one of Takagi's carrier scouts, from Shōkaku, reported that it located American ships bearing 182°, 163 nmi (188 mi; 302 km) from Takagi. At 07:45, the scout confirmed that it had located "one carrier, one cruiser, and three destroyers". Another Shōkaku scout aircraft quickly confirmed the sighting. ---
To try to confirm the location of the American carriers, at 15:15 Hara sent a flight of eight torpedo bombers as scouts to sweep 200 nmi (230 mi; 370 km) westward.

At 06:15 on 8 May, Hara launched seven torpedo bombers to search the area bearing 140–230° south and out to 250 nmi (290 mi; 460 km) from the Japanese carriers. Assisting in the search were three Kawanishi Type 97s from Tulagi and four Type 1 bombers from Rabaul...
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Puhis
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Puhis »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

"That the lack of a carrier-borne capability for scouting (reconnaissance, in Japanese naval parlance) contributed greatly to the demise of the Japanese carriers was affirmed by Akagi’s former air officer, Mitsuo Fuchida. As Fuchida explained, writing in 1955,

Fuchida is a known lier. He was telling fairy tails (written in 1955) because he was trying to conceal his own incompetence... As you see, Japan used carrier planes as scouts. Just because Fuchida didn't want to do it, does not mean that it was against "doctrine"...

Edit: If you want to know what Japanese historians thinks about Fuchida, read Shattered Sword page 442...
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Puhis
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Puhis »

Double post
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Jorge_Stanbury
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

I am certainly getting that book for xmass

thanks
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Puhis
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Puhis »

Well, actually KB's mastermind of air operations was staff air officer Minoru Genda, not Fuchida. So it was Genda's plan to fly inadequate search at Midway. Fuchida was Akagi's air group leader.

Anyway, in his book Fuchida is trying to conceal incompetence of IJN officers. Japanese war memoirs written in 1950s (right after censorship) are not very reliable. Some might even say that they are nonsense books.
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I am certainly getting that book for xmass

thanks

Shattered Sword is a MUST OWN book with this game!
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John 3rd
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I am certainly getting that book for xmass

thanks

Double Post
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jmalter
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by jmalter »

an interesting tactic was posted here, where CV sqns 'go dark' during transit, relying on their TF cruiser float-planes for ASW search.

the idea was, to prevent the opponent from learning the location of CVs, if he received reports that his subs were spotted by carrier-capable aircraft.

imo such reports are gonna be unreliable, they won't reliably identify the plane that spotted them. i've gotten reports of planes spotting my Allied TFs on the West Coast, they report float-planes, torpedo-bombers, or fighter-bombers on a random basis. so i don't put much stock in what is reported, as i know they're all sub-based float-planes.

similarly, i don't think an IJ player will be able to discern the location of an Allied CVTF based on intermittent reports of air-ASW activity from his subs. & i sure don't want to transit my CVs across empty space w/o a goodly percentage of my Avengers on 50% ASW.
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Itdepends »

If you've got a lot of planes on search though at a wide search radius it becomes pretty obvious when a large carrier group is transiting an area that you have subs in.
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Crackaces »

imo such reports are gonna be unreliable, they won't reliably identify the plane that spotted them. i've gotten reports of planes spotting my Allied TFs on the West Coast, they report float-planes, torpedo-bombers, or fighter-bombers on a random basis. so i don't put much stock in what is reported, as i know they're all sub-based float-planes.

One report might be as you describe .. but this game is not about one report. In my opinion, it is about "Heavy Radio Traffic at hex XYZ" combined with submarines sighting carrier aircraft, combined with pointing search arcs into the suspected area, etc. The game has a pattern within its randomness. The game tends not to simply state "3 CV's, 2BB a CA, 8 DD's headed to ABC". Even search planes with pilots with skill of 80+ do not report entirely accurately. But a big picture with intel can be put together, and some level of intelligence for a particular player becomes 'actionable'. The really neat thing about this game is that the player that can put this picture together with the least "hard" intelligence has a distinct advantage.
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: SenToku

IJN seems to have number of suberb scout plane platforms in its inventory, such as Chitose class, Tone class and later converted Mogami. Is there a reason why IJN player needs to use his strike planes to Search or ASW roles, when he can have as many as 100 long range float and recon plane models with his carriers?

Seems kind of waste to double or triple train their pilots, especially since the losses among them are usually pretty heavy and pilot training is what it is.

SenToku, if you want to play "historically" then you should keep NavSearch done by floats. Japanese doctrine was to use 100% of carrier planes for direct roles and seaplanes for support.

If you want to ruin a PBEM game insist that the opponent take up tactics, operational dogma, political strategy that is either a myth, an isolated case, or lead to the eventual conclusion. In my first PBEM game my opponent was immersed in the dogma that the coastal route to Akyab was the only feasible route to attack in Burma. When I pulled off Operation Extended Captial 2 years early he freaked with a mythical description of the actual circumstances that lead to the misguided original campaign.

BTW) This is a game not a similation. If you turn advanced weather on and play by this rule -- I guarantee you will lose the KB in a PBEM contest. [;)] There are game mechanics that provide an advantage in a naval confrontation that require the use of CV based aircraft to patrol if Midway is not to be repeated. And once repeated .. a slow death to the PBEM game ...[8|]
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by offenseman »

Lenny, I think we could add a lot to this thread after we can talk about our battle in depth. I am sure it has a lot of good examples of what, how, and why. Not knowing the exact butcher's bill, we might even say that we both did pretty well in that battle; the brutal battle that it was.

BTW- still wondering what was limping away for 4 days until it got out of my LBA search range. Still guessing it was Alabama... [;)]

Sometimes things said in Nitwit sound very different in English.
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by LoBaron »

Agree, it was an interesting and comlex battle, without a desastrous defeat or overwhelming victory for one side.
I am very much looking forward to discuss it in depth when we finally lift FOW my friend.


But have no idea what limping you are talking about. No limping in the USN. Only swimming. Or forming reefs. We are a disciplined navy. [:'(]
You´re confusing with Limp Bizkit maybe?
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by GreyJoy »

I think it still needs to be cleared out the whole thing about operating your CVs into big TFs or smaller ones that respect the coordination issue.
My question now is: for what concerns CAP (so let's forget for a moment about offensive strikes), does it matter to have several CVTFs in the same hex (also forget about the possible reaction for a moment) instead of one big TF? Will the CAP of more TFs operating in the same hex be as effective (or more, or less) as the CAP of a massive CVTF? Will the presence of several TFs in the same hex puzzle the attackers so to divert some enemy bomber strikes to different TFs (even if all present in the same hex)?
And for what concerns AA fire, is it better to have a massive CVTF with several BBs attached or more CVTFs with one BB each... so to say, given the same amount of AA guns in the same hex, does it matter for AA coverage to have it spread over multiple TFs?
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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by jeffk3510 »

You get a coordination penalty on the strike, as you're aware, but in terms of CAP in the same hex for 1 GIANT task force vs 5 CV groups.. I don't have the answer, and I am curious myself. There probaboy isn't any difference I am guessing.

I saw in someones AAR that they run the USN CVs in one big group and disregard the penalty as it doesn't exist that bad in their opinion.

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RE: How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

Post by offenseman »

I have seen several examples in the course of two PBEM where several CV TFs in one hex shared CAP over all the TFs in the hex. I've also never seen a terrible coordination penalty even though I have used some large CV TFs at various times.
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