The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: Vasquez

The price alone does not turn average Jon Doe into a wargamer.

It would probably require a brain transplant or some miracle intelligence-encahncing drug.

[wodin]

OK sent him an email telling him he needs to contact you.

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The invitation is open and he knows where we are

ORIGINAL: wodin
The sale with RPS sounds good and Tim is waiting for contact from Iain.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Vasquez


1. One year ago a retail gaming store (in germany) announced their cessation of Business. They had offered a half dozen boxed Version of Battles in Italy (German retail Version) for 1 (one) Euro each. 
One months later they had not sold one of them. So I bought them all and made a giveaway on my gaming site. We have some wargamers over there yes, but the majority are shooter fans (since 7idGaming is focused on e-sports and we are hosting servers for ArmaII and such games). Anyway. In short: No one wanted Battles in Italy. Neither for 1 Euro nor for free.



The price alone does not turn average Jon Doe into a wargamer. 

Huge difference between a retail shop and an online shop..you have a worldwide audience not just who lives in the area..The internet has opened up business as I said world wide...I'm sure there are plenty of wargamers across the globe.

No the price doesn't..but many people take a punt at something if the price is right..just to see if they like it..

Also I think some people are really not giving any credit to gamers in general..as if they are too stupid to get into wargaming..I don't buy that. I think there are load sof people out there who just don't know about the genre and would enjoy it if they did know.

Think of all the military history books that get sold every year..I'm sure many of those readers would actually enjoy wargames..but I bet a fair few don't even know these games exist.

[Vasquez]

ORIGINAL: wodin
Huge difference between a retail shop and an online shop..you have a worldwide audience not just who lives in the area..

You are right Wodin. But that offer (1 Euro Battles in Italy) was offered via the german Amazon shop (uhm checked it right now. Still a few avaiable after one year- lol).

Maybe its you opinion that a average wargamer does not look at Amazon at first place (Might be true for England - I dont know. But thats at least not true for Germany).

But otherwise where to get the new audience if not from Amazon (or steam)? Potential new buyers do not move over here on their own to have a look into the matrixgames´ shelves.

[jerrystead]

ORIGINAL: Tomn

- I couldn’t help but notice that your essay had a certain level of “us vs them” thinking – “they” said we were wrong, “they” said we couldn’t make it, “they” said we were doomed, but we showed them all! Now, I imagine this sort of thinking is quite justified if you’ve been taking a lot of flak for various reasons and have nevertheless managed to turn a profit , but do you feel that this sort of “siege mentality” might be affecting your ability to make a rational and objective analysis of your situation and your options?

This whole dilemma caught my eye after the RPS article, and I can most certainly say that its foundation and the reasoning behind it lies within the psych of the decision makers at Slitherine. As a master's graduate in Clinical Psychology at the University of Auburn I can say with a high degree of confidence that Iain McNeil may be a victim of PPD - "Paranoid Personality Disorder". A detailed thesis on the subject can be found at the UK Essays website. A colleague of mine wrote that piece.

If this seems to be the case, then as a professional I can make a few assertions as to the cause and effect of business policies and the companies pricing structure, including Slitherine management's (as what would appear to be) "abnormal" perception of its customers and/or potential customers as expressed in posts and messages from Iain McNeil. When one is suffering from such a condition they have a form of distrust towards others (in Iain's case being the media, customers, or even forum members). This reaction can translate into odd behavior, manifesting itself within the company's policies, its decisions and the decision-making process as a whole. When a form of trust, or lack there-of, manifests itself it can control the way someone responds to certain situations. The situation we are seeing right now is one such example.

The occurrences of the "them and us" factor has been noticed by some, including myself, in posts made by Iain. This can be overlooked by many, but is well understood by those who understand and have diagnosed those with PPD. This has, as it appears, allowed Iain to confidently assert that his views and the views of his associates are correct beyond a reasonable doubt, and those of his customers--of which his revenue is dependent upon--are not. Not to be confused with "stubbornness", as this condition is a by-product of what I would assume is a long career within the software developing and publishing industry. I can make the assumption that years of doing this work have gradually transformed the psych of Iain into someone who is wanting of security within his surroundings and mistrust for the unknown. His perception of the media, co-workers (as seen in the mysterious dismissal of David Heath, numerous PR managers, longtime artists, and events taking place at the publication call Wargamer), reviewers (the Metacritic incident taking place a few months ago which unfortunately resulted in a manhunt with a bounty) and the psychological separation that's developed between himself and his customers (thus, the pricing debate that has unfolded today).

I do not post my opinions on the matter to alienate Iain, as that is not my intention, or state that these assertions are fact. They are just an analysis by someone who has spent much of his years understanding the psychological underpinnings of people and how they interact with their surroundings. However, from the evidence I have at my disposal, I do and will standby my assertions and diagnosis.

Thanks for listening.

[jday305]

I am actually one of those who found this website and its games through Steam. I was so impressed with Unity of Command that I purchased through Steam that I researched who made the game and found the Matrix site. Since then my purchases have been through Matrix instead of Steam.

[JDM]

wow Jerrystead, .......come to think of it , I've noticed that at night, especially if its a full moon, the hairs on the back of his hands starts growing and his front teeth protrude over his bottom lip. In your professional opinion could this further evidence be connected.

Really pleased that your first post has been so enlightening, btw what game are you playing................oh no not that old PPD again, they said I was cured.

[PipFromSlitherine]

ORIGINAL: jerrystead

ORIGINAL: Tomn

- I couldn’t help but notice that your essay had a certain level of “us vs them” thinking – “they” said we were wrong, “they” said we couldn’t make it, “they” said we were doomed, but we showed them all! Now, I imagine this sort of thinking is quite justified if you’ve been taking a lot of flak for various reasons and have nevertheless managed to turn a profit , but do you feel that this sort of “siege mentality” might be affecting your ability to make a rational and objective analysis of your situation and your options?

This whole dilemma caught my eye after the RPS article, and I can most certainly say that its foundation and the reasoning behind it lies within the psych of the decision makers at Slitherine. As a master's graduate in Clinical Psychology at the University of Auburn I can say with a high degree of confidence that Iain McNeil may be a victim of PPD - "Paranoid Personality Disorder". A detailed thesis on the subject can be found at the UK Essays website. A colleague of mine wrote that piece.

If this seems to be the case, then as a professional I can make a few assertions as to the cause and effect of business policies and the companies pricing structure, including Slitherine management's (as what would appear to be) "abnormal" perception of its customers and/or potential customers as expressed in posts and messages from Iain McNeil. When one is suffering from such a condition they have a form of distrust towards others (in Iain's case being the media, customers, or even forum members). This reaction can translate into odd behavior, manifesting itself within the company's policies, its decisions and the decision-making process as a whole. When a form of trust, or lack there-of, manifests itself it can control the way someone responds to certain situations. The situation we are seeing right now is one such example.

The occurrences of the "them and us" factor has been noticed by some, including myself, in posts made by Iain. This can be overlooked by many, but is well understood by those who understand and have diagnosed those with PPD. This has, as it appears, allowed Iain to confidently assert that his views and the views of his associates are correct beyond a reasonable doubt, and those of his customers--of which his revenue is dependent upon--are not. Not to be confused with "stubbornness", as this condition is a by-product of what I would assume is a long career within the software developing and publishing industry. I can make the assumption that years of doing this work have gradually transformed the psych of Iain into someone who is wanting of security within his surroundings and mistrust for the unknown. His perception of the media, co-workers (as seen in the mysterious dismissal of David Heath, numerous PR managers, longtime artists, and events taking place at the publication call Wargamer), reviewers (the Metacritic incident taking place a few months ago which unfortunately resulted in a manhunt with a bounty) and the psychological separation that's developed between himself and his customers (thus, the pricing debate that has unfolded today).

I do not post my opinions on the matter to alienate Iain, as that is not my intention, or state that these assertions are fact. They are just an analysis by someone who has spent much of his years understanding the psychological underpinnings of people and how they interact with their surroundings. However, from the evidence I have at my disposal, I do and will standby my assertions and diagnosis.

Thanks for listening.

I LOL'ed. So thanks for the humour.

Cheers

Pip

[wodin]

Must admit it always strikes me as odd when it comes to threads like this or other debate threads when you get a first time post that really goes into one...now this time it's either someone from the RPS article who has singed up..or someone who already has an account but is going undercover so to speak. If that is the case I just can't understand why they don't just say it using the normal account name. I have in the past use duplicate accounts but that stemmed from being harassed rather than joining in on a debate. I'm sure Iain knows I'm not someone to hold my council if I have something to say even if it might put me in a negative light by the powers that be here. Though I actually have not just wargamers in mind to benefit but I also want developers and Slitherine to prosper.

The other thing it could be and this is prob me being paranoid is someone is trying to make it look like it's me doing it...

ORIGINAL: JDM

wow Jerrystead, .......come to think of it , I've noticed that at night, especially if its a full moon, the hairs on the back of his hands starts growing and his front teeth protrude over his bottom lip. In your professional opinion could this further evidence be connected.

Really pleased that your first post has been so enlightening, btw what game are you playing................oh no not that old PPD again, they said I was cured.

[sullafelix]

It is one thing to agree with the article on/in RPS and the PON price. PON is now the Slitherine groups to charge what they want. I believe you will see a higher price for Napoleon's campaigns also when they start selling that game. You can see a forum opened on coming games. I saw there was a new Napoleon game listed and almost wet myself. Unfortunately it turned out to be Ageod's game. Do not get me wrong, it is an excellent game I just thought there was a new one in the works.

For my pocket book I am glad that I ended up getting both the above games for a mere pittance on GG or Amazon.

As far as the sake of the hobby and designers they would never bother to make games to be sold at what the online stores sell wargames for. But this is also true when those online stores sell big name games. I bought Diablo III for $20 and Skyrim not much more and those games are still priced normally near there beginning price.I also scored big in a mortar and brick store and payed $ 1.99 for 3 of Ageod's games. It came in a pack called Military Strategy and had BOA2,Civil War and WWI.

I do own a lot of Matrix games and yes with both Command OPs and WITE I waited until they were on sale but the sale price was still high enough for everyone to make money.

I would like to see the idea that RPS brought up about bundling some old games together for a sale. I know I would pick up a few of the older titles if they were priced lower.

As far as the jump from reality posted above I do not know what to say. I would hope only the History Channel would attempt to diagnose a person from a few internet posts. Possibly right before Gator Guys or whatever the HC shows now.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: wodin
If that is the case I just can't understand why they don't just say it using the normal account name.

Typical internet sock puppetry tactic. If you stuff a debate with enough posts from different account names people might think your opinion has more merit than it actually deserves. Though using sock puppets on this forum with its generally higher than average intellectual acuity tells us the poster is probably not a Matrix forums regular nor a serious wargamer.

Jim

[grogmaster]

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The invitation is open and he knows where we are

Wait, what?

I'm sorry, but didn't you just say:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil
We host a promotion, sale of the week and run it in conjunction with RPS.

Isn't he doing you the favor for offering to you guys to host sales in bundles with the publication he writes for? Why the reservation all of a sudden? Actions speak louder than words.

[wodin]

Well I've told Tim and given him Iains email address. Not sure why I had to be a go between...

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd


5. @DBEVES - you state people hold on for sales for holidays and flights. Have you been around when Matrix have their sale at Christmas. SO many people post about how they wanted a game but waited for the sale. So Matrix do suffer from people who hold off anyway. Perhaps what they should do is provide games at launch at a reduced cost to get early adopters or have random sales or reduce the price of their games when a sequel comes out. OOTP do it rather successfully I believe - and you could argue you can't get much more niche than providing ONE game (I know they do others - but OOTP is their flagship)

As I've said elsewhere, my Steam/GamersGate collection numbers 300+. My Matrix collection numbers 9. About 25% (75) of the games I purchased on Steam/GG were at full price. Not a single one on Matrix was purchased at full price. This idea of "If we sold 100 000 no one would hold our products in value" is extremely silly in my opinion. Value is subjective. I don't cherish my copy of WitPAE that I purchased at $80 because it has had sales in the hundreds to thousands. I cherish my copy of Sleeping Dogs, where everything (and I mean everything, main game and all DLC) was purchased at prices reduced by 75-85%, but I don't consider it valueless because it sold 1.75 million copies. I do know I wouldn't have purchased either at full price, and that's where their value (or lack thereof) lay.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: jday305

I am actually one of those who found this website and its games through Steam. I was so impressed with Unity of Command that I purchased through Steam that I researched who made the game and found the Matrix site. Since then my purchases have been through Matrix instead of Steam.

And for your daily irony supplement, Matrix (which Iain argues is a developer, not a distributor) is not the developer for UoC, it only distributes it (with a healthy commission, I'm sure). 2x2 Games out of Croatia are the developers.

Steam sells it for $20, Matrix sells it for $33 (CAD). That speaks volumes...

[TigerTC]

I'm a cheapskate.

I don't want to invest my money in a game that's no good.

More importantly, I don't want to invest my little free TIME into a game that's no good.

Which is one of the reasons I love demos: I can spend a few minutes to hours with a game, get a feel for its UI and depth, and decide whether it's worth me spending my money and time on. Without a demo, I'm often gunshy about buying a new game -- especially a newer, fullpriced one.

COTA and CO: BFTB are good examples of this. I read for years what a great game COTA was, but it didn't have a demo. Also, it was always FULL PRICE on Matrix, even many years after it had been released. So I stayed away from it and never bought it. When I downloaded the demo for CO: BFTB, found what a great and versatile game it was, I was willing to shell out the money for that game. But had there been no demo, I doubt I ever would have played it.

Distant Worlds, as mentioned above by someone else, is a counterexample. I'm really interested in playing it. But I've bought a few other space games (from other publishers) and been disappointed in all of them. I've read the DW forums and read reviews, but those can't replace a good demo to get the feel of a game. Without trying the demo, I know I'll probably never buy DW -- and never at full price.

Mine is just one voice. I've steered away from a lot of Matrix games because of the lack of demos. I don't understand how exactly that plays into Matrix's business model, or how representative I am of other wargamers, but that's my story.

[Tomn]

ORIGINAL: jerrystead
This whole dilemma caught my eye after the RPS article, and I can most certainly say that its foundation and the reasoning behind it lies within the psych of the decision makers at Slitherine. As a master's graduate in Clinical Psychology at the University of Auburn I can say with a high degree of confidence that Iain McNeil may be a victim of PPD - "Paranoid Personality Disorder". A detailed thesis on the subject can be found at the UK Essays website. A colleague of mine wrote that piece.

Uh...no. I'm not really sure if you're pulling my leg or not, but that really wasn't what I was suggesting.

What I was suggesting is much, much more banal. Simply put, if you take a particular course of action and everybody tells you "Good Lord, man, you're nuts, this is nuts," that naturally causes you to get rather defensive of your position because you're pretty sure you're not nuts. If that course of action doesn't actually end in flaming failure, it's quite natural to respond by going "THEY said I was nuts, but I was actually right all along! I don't have to listen to those jerks!" The thing is, sometimes the jerks do have something worth listening to and acting upon, and pride in the fact that you defied everybody and succeeded anyways may sometimes obscure how you might have succeeded even more had you listened to some of what others were saying. While in this particular case that may or may not be true, it could have been of worth to do a little self-reflection on the matter. I was really, REALLY not trying to suggest any actual mental illness of the part of anyone in Matrix Games, and frankly I'm annoyed that I'm now associated with an effort to do so.

(By the way - it's psyche, with an e. There isn't really a different variant of that spelling, psych is something quite different and is usually slang. Drove me nuts the whole way through.)

[grogmaster]

Why do I get the idea that Matrix Games distrusts customers input and shoots down any advice consumers give, with a strong aroma of arrogance?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: grogmaster

Why do I get the idea that Matrix Games distrusts customers input and shoots down any advice consumers give, with a strong aroma of arrogance?

warspite1

Because you have the wrong idea perhaps?

If people hate Matrix so much why don't they just go elsewhere to a company they are happy with? Why waste their lives posting on some forum where they believe they will be "distrusted" or "shot down" with a "strong aroma of arrogance"?

We get it by now - Matrix suck, their games are too expensive and they don't listen - okay, bye.

"strong aroma of arrogance" I wonder if Yankee Candles do that fragrance?

[IainMcNeil]

In response to Jerrystead:

Thanks for the psychological analysis. I'll let my doctor know so he can stop looking for something more serious

General response:

There is definitely a clear misunderstanding here.

We greatly value customer feedback. You only have to look at the forums and see all the things we've changed at the request of our fans - basically you guys on the forums. We really appreciate the feedback and ideas and suggestions. However every idea that you present is reviewed and while many get implemented because we agree they are good ideas, many do not. We use our judgement to decide which of the suggestions to go with, and our experience and knowledge of the games industry and 13 years running the largest strategy games publisher in the world to filter the wheat from the chaff.

So the basic summary is - we are listening to our fans. We trust them. We believe they are telling us what they think is best and have our best interests at heart.

But...

We do not agree on this point. Does this mean we're paranoid, arrogant and out of touch.

That is one way to interpret it, but it assumes we are wrong.

The other option is that we are right and this is best for our business and our developers. So we have 2 options
1) Follow a business plan based on 13 years of running a successful company and over 20 years in the games industry.
2) Follow a business plan based on what a journalist and our fans (none of whom to my knowledge have ever made a game or run computer game publisher) suggest because we don't have the guts to follow our beliefs.

I know which option I will be choosing


EDIT - Sorry Warspite - I did not mean to imply this response was to you. It was just written after you had made your post in response to Jerrystead and other comments above. I have tried to clarify.